"Escaping the Belay" is not a thing

Yes. And something tells me this is all eerily similar to the inner workings of the US judicial system.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Let's hear it folks: All kinds of people are contending that the ability for the second to "escape the belay" and (somehow) come to the aid of a fallen and incapacitated leader they cannot lower to the anchor is a "thing" that is a fundamental skill people should learn?

Maybe some one can share their experience with this Unicorn that (while theoretically possible) actually comes up against reality in practice and is so rare as to not be a thing.

Well, people should also know how to perform basic maintenance on their cars and eat food that wont make them  sluggish and fat. Do they?

Bill Lawry wrote: Yes. And something tells me this is all eerily similar to the inner workings of the US judicial system.

Congressional system...Health care system...Educational system...

I did a lot of multipitch.

I absolutely assure you that escaping the belay is a thing, and someday you may be unlucky enough to have a guy hanging from your waist that doesnt respond to all your cussing.  You will find that as long as you have 150 to 200 lbs hanging off you, that you cant do anything, and that it would be far better to have that weight hanging off the wall instead, so you can actually do something.  Anything.  I needed to be free so that I could reset an anchor as the pin that caught the fall was not good enough to lower on and I needed to be free to do the job.  

Its not imaginary skillset.

It happened to me, I had to lower off a very seriously injured partner, and in the end carry him about a mile and a half, across a small river (western river, a channel creek back east) put him in a car and drive him to an emergency room.  If I had not been able to escape the belay, the remaining rope was not enough to get to the ground with.

If you don't know how to escape then you are st00pid ......

No stories to share.  But have had friends injured climbing and rescued.  Some might have been faster if more self-rescue skills had been learned.
I think it is like CPR or Naloxone.  Very few people can talk about saving lives with that skill, but it happens, and it would happen more if more people had the skill set.
Clearly not a thing for < 1/2 length rop TR or sport with anchors though.

Ive never had to do a leader rescue, and hope I never do.  That said, I am happy to know how these skills and feel better when climbing a committing route with a partner who also does.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Let's hear it folks: All kinds of people are contending that the ability for the second to "escape the belay" and (somehow) come to the aid of a fallen and incapacitated leader they cannot lower to the anchor is a "thing" that is a fundamental skill people should learn?

Maybe some one can share their experience with this Unicorn that (while theoretically possible) actually comes up against reality in practice and is so rare as to not be a thing.

I would just like to point out that this is an excellent "troll", akin to alot of my mid-career stuff. Is he serious or isn't he?!?!!? Lol.

The answer to that question is "it depends"...on you. When using 1% of your brain, like most MP users, you think "That's BULLSHIT!! What if...." blah, blah, blah. Well, when using 100% of your brain you know that "escaping the belay" refers to an antiquated practice exclusively for old school climbers and in the modern age "escaping the belay" is most definitely NOT a thing, but YES you might have to "escape" but you don't need any training to do it, just tie a knot in the brake side and transfer your belay to some sort of anchor.

There's no one way to do it, you just need to figure it out and trying to regurgitate some bullshit you "learned" at climbing camp is just going to be confusing because no "escape" is going to fit perfectly into the junk you learned from some wannabe "guide".

It all refers back to what us "real" climbers are constantly harping on in these forums, and what I like to call "USE YER BRAIN". Take all the classes you want, read all the books, follow all the pitches you can, it can't hurt, but in reality you don't know SHIT until you've done it or used it in the "real" world.

Climbing is pretty damn easy, not too much complicated about it, you need to know a few things for sure but ultimately it's your ability to process information quickly and use the skills you do have effectively. The forums consistently turn molehills into mountains with much ado about nothing.

That's been one of my mantras - focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's worth it in the end because once you get there, you can climb mountains.

                                                  -Tradiban  

Climbing is really simple, our egos insist on making it complicated.

                                                  -Tradiban

^^that was a lot of words to say “it was a thing, it’s not a thing, it is a thing”,  then most ironically, “use yer brain”....lol

luke smith wrote: Knowing how to effectively triage, stabilize and treat any injury that a leader who CANNOT SELF-RESCUE will always be more important than escaping the belay even if it is desirable.  So you're money is better spent on WEMT/advanced remote medical treatment and practice than any idealized self-rescue skills.  Otherwise you're showing up to a mess that you can't fix.  

Disagree.

If you can't get to an injured leader, what good does medical training do?  You can always emprovise medical care, most of these situations are evac anyway.
To the original question.  Hell yes.  Being able to escape a belay and attend to an injured leader is a BASIC SKILL.  My second's ability in a self-rescue situation will dictate what I climb with them.  I'd never get on a wall or a scary pitch/ route of any sort without a competent second.
Furthermore, competent rope work as a leader is equally important.  I have clients all the time who can't belay worth a damn or get stuck.  Rope shenanigans are part of the game, know your systems and always be open to learning more, or stay on the ground.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Let's hear it folks: All kinds of people are contending that the ability for the second to "escape the belay" and (somehow) come to the aid of a fallen and incapacitated leader they cannot lower to the anchor is a "thing" that is a fundamental skill people should learn?

Fundamental, no. Advanced for climbers who climb where a SAR rescue may not be available or take a long time, yes. Then it’s totally a thing that could save your life. 
There’s a reason it’s at the end of self rescue books. 

Mark Pilate wrote: ^^that was a lot of words to say “it was a thing, it’s not a thing, it is a thing”,  then most ironically, “use yer brain”....lol

Actually I think it’s just a long winded way to say ‘look at me’

Tradiban wrote:

I would just like to point out that this is an excellent "troll", akin to alot of my mid-career stuff. Is he serious or isn't he?!?!!? Lol.

The answer to that question is "it depends"...on you. When using 1% of your brain, like most MP users, you think "That's BULLSHIT!! What if...." blah, blah, blah. Well, when using 100% of your brain you know that "escaping the belay" refers to an antiquated practice exclusively for old school climbers and in the modern age "escaping the belay" is most definitely NOT a thing, but YES you might have to "escape" but you don't need any training to do it, just tie a knot in the brake side and transfer your belay to some sort of anchor.

There's no one way to do it, you just need to figure it out and trying to regurgitate some bullshit you "learned" at climbing camp is just going to be confusing because no "escape" is going to fit perfectly into the junk you learned from some wannabe "guide".

It all refers back to what us "real" climbers are constantly harping on in these forums, and what I like to call "USE YER BRAIN". Take all the classes you want, read all the books, follow all the pitches you can, it can't hurt, but in reality you don't know SHIT until you've done it or used it in the "real" world.

Climbing is pretty damn easy, not too much complicated about it, you need to know a few things for sure but ultimately it's your ability to process information quickly and use the skills you do have effectively. The forums consistently turn molehills into mountains with much ado about nothing.

That's been one of my mantras - focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's worth it in the end because once you get there, you can climb mountains.

                                                  -Tradiban  

Climbing is really simple, our egos insist on making it complicated.

                                                  -Tradiban

This hasn't changed at all: the system of belaying a leader hasn't evolved since we've moved beyond the hip belay (which we still use in the alpine).

Your reasoning has more sense at the other end of the rope as we typically belay a second off of an anchor these days.  We can tie a knot and be hands-free.  Belaying a leader, however, a knot behind an ATC ar grigri doesn't get you very far.

Increased number of climbers + decreased knowledge = more unnecessary accidents

chris magness wrote:

This hasn't changed at all: the system of belaying a leader hasn't evolved since we've moved beyond the hip belay (which we still use in the alpine).

Your reasoning has more sense at the other end of the rope as we typically belay a second off of an anchor these days.  We can tie a knot and be hands-free.  Belaying a leader, however, a knot behind an ATC ar grigri doesn't get you very far.

(Facepalm) Yes, you can "escape" the belay when belaying a leader, simply by tying a knot behind the ATC or Gri, although it will be much easier with a brake assisting device. Just USE YER BRAIN!

Tradiban wrote:

(Facepalm) Yes, you can "escape" the belay when belaying a leader, simply by tying a knot behind the ATC or Gri, although it will be much easier with a brake assisting device. Just USE YER BRAIN!

(Facepalm) No, you can't.  You can get hands-free and create a jumbled mess by jambing a knot into a device.  But you are still very much an active part of the system.  The load is on you.  The whole point of escaping a belay is transferring the load.  USE YER BRAIN!  Understand basic terminology!

I do agree with you on ypur first point, likely a great troll.

chris magness wrote:

(Facepalm) No, you can't.  You can get hands-free and create a jumbled mess by jambing a knot into a device.  But you are still very much an active part of the system.  The load is on you.  The whole point of escaping a belay is transferring the load.  USE YER BRAIN!  Understand basic terminology!

I do agree with you on ypur first point, likely a great troll.

This.  I contend that escaping the belay is a real thing, and worth practicing.  Examples upthread show real life situations where it was required, regardless of the rarity of the situation.

Exhibit a: I got bored and practiced this (munter mule on ATC, prussic to transfer load directly to anchor, ala Freedom of the Hills et al).  It actually took a few times to be able to do it cleanly.  If my partner was in trouble on the other end of he rope, I’d prefer to not need to figure it out on the fly.  Sometimes every second counts. 

Tradiban wrote:

I would just like to point out that this is an excellent "troll", akin to alot of my mid-career stuff. Is he serious or isn't he?!?!!? Lol.

The answer to that question is "it depends"...on you. When using 1% of your brain, like most MP users, you think "That's BULLSHIT!! What if...." blah, blah, blah. Well, when using 100% of your brain you know that "escaping the belay" refers to an antiquated practice exclusively for old school climbers and in the modern age "escaping the belay" is most definitely NOT a thing, but YES you might have to "escape" but you don't need any training to do it, just tie a knot in the brake side and transfer your belay to some sort of anchor.

There's no one way to do it, you just need to figure it out and trying to regurgitate some bullshit you "learned" at climbing camp is just going to be confusing because no "escape" is going to fit perfectly into the junk you learned from some wannabe "guide".

It all refers back to what us "real" climbers are constantly harping on in these forums, and what I like to call "USE YER BRAIN". Take all the classes you want, read all the books, follow all the pitches you can, it can't hurt, but in reality you don't know SHIT until you've done it or used it in the "real" world.

Climbing is pretty damn easy, not too much complicated about it, you need to know a few things for sure but ultimately it's your ability to process information quickly and use the skills you do have effectively. The forums consistently turn molehills into mountains with much ado about nothing.

That's been one of my mantras - focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it's worth it in the end because once you get there, you can climb mountains.

                                                  -Tradiban  

Climbing is really simple, our egos insist on making it complicated.

                                                  -Tradiban

Can you sum that up in one or two sentences plz?

Hamish Malin wrote:

This.  I contend that escaping the belay is a real thing, and worth practicing.  Examples upthread show real life situations where it was required, regardless of the rarity of the sutuation.

Exhibit a: I got bored and practiced this (munter mule on ATC, prussic to transfer load directly to anchor, ala Freedom of the Hills et al).  It actually took a few times to be able to do it cleanly.  If my partner was in trouble on the other end of he rope, I’d prefer to not need to figure it out on the fly.  Sometimes every second counts. 

100%. To get good at a thing, you must do the thing.  To stay good at a thing, you must occasionally practice the thing.

In the late 90s / early 2000s, I worked at a ropes course with a zip line where we tied swiss seats on our clients. I tied thousands of the thing. In 2001, I could have tied a swiss seat blindfolded in a cold shower, and I loathe cold showers. Last year I went to tie a swiss seat after a decade of not doing it. The water knot was completely gone from my muscle memory. 

m Mobes wrote:

Can you sum that up in one or two sentences plz?

tl;...nm 

Em Cos pointed out above that "escaping the belay" is a shorthand way of describing a set of actions that many trad climbers can do and are equipped to do with stuff they normally carry, if they need to do it.  But I swear I can't recall ever hearing anybody talking about escaping the belay, or reading about escaping the belay in all my years of climbing, until I started reading Forum posts on MP 5 years ago, and read in any number of posts that this is an essential skill I must have.

I carry prussiks, a microascender/pulley and a small first aid kit with me when I climb longer multipitch routes. I have had occasion to use all those things over the years in various situations.  I have been injured, have had to more or less crawl out to the road, have self-rescued with an injured partner, but thankfully I have never been in a situation where I had to escape the belay.  I'm hoping I never do.