Climbing with a pack

This is so working into my next thread topic!

Climbing without a pack?

Mark Andes wrotetwo extra cordelettes

two extra? i cant even justify 1 cordalette

christoph benells wrote: two extra? i cant even justify 1 cordalette

As I said later, that's not a 20foot cord I was talking about a longer prusik.  IE you need two to (safely) ascend or one to (safely) transfer belay to a munter.  As others have said though all that is unnecessary as you'll never need to escape belay.

L Kap wrote:

BTW, if I understand the Rocky Mountain Rescue Group statistics correctly, the demographic of people most likely to be in an accident or to get stranded and need rescue is men ages 20-29. Perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not, this is also the demographic that tends to want to climb fast and light, run out their pro, and be under-prepared for things to go not as planned. It's not middle-aged women with packs like me who are keeping RMRG busy. https://internal.rockymountainrescue.org/publications/2012_RMRG_Boulder_Eldo_Rock_Climb_Accidents.pdf 

If you add up climbers that are men between 20-29, they would far outnumber all women climbers and men climbers over 30 put together. 

I would like to see the percent of male climbers 20-29 that need a rescue, compared to my/your demographic group. That would be more relevant.

L Kap wrote:

Yes, I agree with all of this, if by "climbing ability" you are including technical skills and knowledge as well as physical ability.

Additionally, RMRG specifically calls out people being under-prepared and getting benighted as a significant category of preventable rescue calls. Getting off Redgarden Wall in Eldo in particular is damn dangerous if you aren't familiar with the east slabs descent or the locations of the rap routes, especially at night without a headlamp and topo. And good luck figuring that stuff out with MP. Mountain Project excels at individual route beta. It is vastly inferior to a guidebook in terms of understanding the overall topography of a place and finding your way if you are lost. 

I just saw an excellent 3D topo for the descent path for both Lumpe Tower and Tower One to get to the Chockstone Gully rappel and Vertigo raps. 

L Kap - you should try climbing sans pack to see if it would increase your enjoyment and let you climb harder, or be the cause of some anxiety. It may be the pack is a crutch of sorts...I know my belly fat keeps me from climbing hard stuff. If I could easily jettison it I would.

I'm waiting for a lab process to finish, so why not wade in...

I notice at least one of the pro-pack advocates is a lady (for the record so am I, I'm also pack neutral, I decide whether or not I want one entirely based on the climb/day/conditions etc) and a lot of the folks raving about just loading up the harness/pockets are guys.  I only point this out because there is generally a difference in most mens vs womens center of gravity/balance, and its possible that that might factor in to whether someone is more comfortable in a small daypack pack vs with a super loaded harness.

And the bigger point is, have you SEEN the pockets, or more importantly  LACK of pockets on most women's clothing, including outdoor wear?  Its hard to "jam a few bars" in your pockets when they are functionally non-existant.

Meredith E. wrote: And the bigger point is, have you SEEN the pockets, or more importantly  LACK of pockets on most women's clothing, including outdoor wear?  Its hard to "jam a few bars" in your pockets when they are functionally non-existant.

You have a point, I think most ladies these days wear some form of spandex.

Meredith E. wrote: 
And the bigger point is, have you SEEN the pockets, or more importantly  LACK of pockets on most women's clothing, including outdoor wear?  Its hard to "jam a few bars" in your pockets when they are functionally non-existant.

My wife has had this problem but I've bugged her enough that she has sought out and found climbing pants and shorts with large zip pockets so she can carry stuff (phone, bar) without losing it.  You'll have to look.

Buck Rio wrote:

I just saw an excellent 3D topo for the descent path for both Lumpe Tower and Tower One to get to the Chockstone Gully rappel and Vertigo raps. 

L Kap - you should try climbing sans pack to see if it would increase your enjoyment and let you climb harder, or be the cause of some anxiety. It may be the pack is a crutch of sorts...I know my belly fat keeps me from climbing hard stuff. If I could easily jettison it I would.

Buck, those are lovely topos. I don't know where you found those, but it probably wasn't through MP, and you're not guaranteed a phone signal in Eldo. Also, if you've climbed on Redgarden, you know there are dozens (hundreds?) of climbs where you have to find your way from the top-out to your chosen descent path which often involves some amount of traveling on the slabby backside (east side) of the wall and then finding your way back over exposed terrain to the proper spot on the complex main face. The guidebook is a big help since you can go from micro to macro and see how everything relates to everything else, when rock is looming around you and hiding major features from view. Anyway. The descent from Redgarden is just one example of when relying on your phone can be inadequate.

Experimenting with what works best for you is always a good idea. I have climbed with and without pack, and I don't have issues with climbing anxiety. I understand where you're coming from, but the pack isn't a crutch. It's a rational decision about what is best for me and how I prefer to climb. I've given numerous examples in this thread where items in my pack have been significantly helpful and/or potentially averted an epic for me or other climbers. That, to me, is more important than maxing out what grades I can climb. There is so much beautiful rock around here - more than I can get to in my lifetime. It's not like wearing a pack is holding me back from exploring and having fun.

I don't understand what is the big deal if some climbers prefer one thing and some prefer another. There doesn't have to be one best or only way to climb. Optimize for speed and difficulty if you want. I'll keep on optimizing for comfort and preparedness. NBD. 

ddriver wrote:

My wife has had this problem but I've bugged her enough that she has sought out and found climbing pants and shorts with large zip pockets so she can carry stuff (phone, bar) without losing it.  You'll have to look.

I've got a pair (OR Ferrosi) that I jam my phone in.  Still not big enough to also jam snacks in.  There's also a certain...irony(?) oddness(?) to suggesting that a lady should spend her time shopping for pants/shorts with large enough pockets rather than just using a small daypack if she's comfortable in it (unless she's asking you to carry it, then fair point)

Meredith E. wrote: I'm waiting for a lab process to finish, so why not wade in...

I notice at least one of the pro-pack advocates is a lady (for the record so am I, I'm also pack neutral, I decide whether or not I want one entirely based on the climb/day/conditions etc) and a lot of the folks raving about just loading up the harness/pockets are guys.  I only point this out because there is generally a difference in most mens vs womens center of gravity/balance, and its possible that that might factor in to whether someone is more comfortable in a small daypack pack vs with a super loaded harness.

And the bigger point is, have you SEEN the pockets, or more importantly  LACK of pockets on most women's clothing, including outdoor wear?  Its hard to "jam a few bars" in your pockets when they are functionally non-existant.

Thanks for this, Meredith. I think the difference in center of gravity is probably a bigger deal than most guys realize. I can see why a person whose center of gravity is already sub-optimally high would not want to add to that by wearing a pack. I hope they can understand why a woman whose center of gravity is sub-optimally low would not want to swing a liter of water off the back of her harness.

Pockets in women's clothing are definitely an issue. The Black Diamond women's alpine light pants have a good deep pockets including one zippered pocket on the thigh. But they are too hot for summer. blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

I also like the flip belt for carrying my phone and maybe a bar. It can be worn above the harness. It would not work well for someone with a large belly. https://flipbelt.com/flipbelt-zipper.

Buck Rio wrote:

If you add up climbers that are men between 20-29, they would far outnumber all women climbers and men climbers over 30 put together.

Yeah, I would also question that, at least locally. I don't know about the rest of the country, but it's not what I see at my gym in Boulder, or at any of the crags I go to, or at any of the climber events I've been to at Neptune, or any of the climbing festivals I've been to. The over-30 crowd is strong, as is the representation of women. 

 

I would like to see the percent of male climbers 20-29 that need a rescue, compared to my/your demographic group. That would be more relevant.

I agree that would be an interesting statistic. I don't know if it exists.

slevin wrote: There is no accurate statistic for age/gender user-days in climbing, but from my (informal) observations in Eldorado Canyon (related to the data below), I would question your "far outnumber" assertion.

One thing that can be generalized for many activities is that 20-29 males are less risk-adverse, and also involved in more traumatic injuries/fatalities, than other age/gender groups. Correlation, or causality?
 

From: Rock Climbing Rescues in Boulder County, Colorado and Eldorado Canyon State Park, Colorado 1998-2011, Lack, Sheets, Entin, Christianson, 2012, Rocky Mountain Rescue Group, Boulder.

Just to clarify that chart, it presents victim demographics in two areas - the Boulder area and ECSP (Eldorado Canyon State Park). It does not show overall climber demographics. 

slevin wrote: There is no accurate statistic for age/gender user-days in climbing, but from my (informal) observations in Eldorado Canyon (related to the data below), I would question your "far outnumber" assertion.

I think you should go to Shelf Road, Clear Creek Canyon or Boulder Canyon on a busy weekend.....I am only 53 and I was BY FAR the oldest guy in CCC - Catslabs last September. Mostly under 25.

Meredith E. wrote: I'm waiting for a lab process to finish, so why not wade in...

I notice at least one of the pro-pack advocates is a lady (for the record so am I, I'm also pack neutral, I decide whether or not I want one entirely based on the climb/day/conditions etc) and a lot of the folks raving about just loading up the harness/pockets are guys.  I only point this out because there is generally a difference in most mens vs womens center of gravity/balance, and its possible that that might factor in to whether someone is more comfortable in a small daypack pack vs with a super loaded harness.

And the bigger point is, have you SEEN the pockets, or more importantly  LACK of pockets on most women's clothing, including outdoor wear?  Its hard to "jam a few bars" in your pockets when they are functionally non-existant.

#stoppocketinequality

L Kap wrote:

Buck, those are lovely topos. I don't know where you found those, but it probably wasn't through MP, and you're not guaranteed a phone signal in Eldo. Also, if you've climbed on Redgarden, you know there are dozens (hundreds?) of climbs where you have to find your way from the top-out to your chosen descent path which often involves some amount of traveling on the slabby backside (east side) of the wall and then finding your way back over exposed terrain to the proper spot on the complex main face. The guidebook is a big help since you can go from micro to macro and see how everything relates to everything else, when rock is looming around you and hiding major features from view. Anyway. The descent from Redgarden is just one example of when relying on your phone can be inadequate.

Experimenting with what works best for you is always a good idea. I have climbed with and without pack, and I don't have issues with climbing anxiety. I understand where you're coming from, but the pack isn't a crutch. It's a rational decision about what is best for me and how I prefer to climb. I've given numerous examples in this thread where items in my pack have been significantly helpful and/or potentially averted an epic for me or other climbers. That, to me, is more important than maxing out what grades I can climb. There is so much beautiful rock around here - more than I can get to in my lifetime. It's not like wearing a pack is holding me back from exploring and having fun.

I don't understand what is the big deal if some climbers prefer one thing and some prefer another. There doesn't have to be one best or only way to climb. Optimize for speed and difficulty if you want. I'll keep on optimizing for comfort and preparedness. NBD.

Again though, you're talking about (apparently) complicated walk offs and decents. Pushing grades and hard climbing aside, the distinction between a very long route, long approach, alpine, circuitous decent, carrying over, etc vs a 2-6 pitch crag with anchors that you rap from, is one you might HAVE to bring extra gear or more supplies. Therefore it's convenient to have at least one pack. 

I can see where you are coming from, but you shouldn't need a whole ass guidebook for a short multi pitch where you go down the same way you got up it. 

Logan Hugmeyer wrote: I see the opposite when hiking all the time. 8 miles back 3 people in skate shoes looking totally gassed with one water bottle between them. "How far to the trailhead?" 

Hey, Don't make fun of the skate shoes brahji!!! Skate shoes are my preferred approach/ hike footwear. And I have a pair of crampons that I use and getting up a 60 degree ice slope is fine...

Mark Andes wrote:

It's just interesting to me that in this thread there's people decrying the idea of having safety gear with you and then in that thread for the "false rescue" everyone is harping on not having enough gear with you....

No, people are harping on them for not knowing how to use the gear that they have.  There is a big difference....

Escaping the belay is important if the leader is out more than half the rope and they fall and need help. Rare, but a realistic situation to be at least mentally prepared for.

I’ve only self rescued a couple times (eg stuck rap rope) and could have called for a rescue. Being prepared for it is like a seatbelt it’s just insurance.

3 cord slings are light and small and have many uses for regular climbing and rescue. I don’t want to leave more expensive regular slings. Sewn slings don’t untie to go around trees etc. cord works better than webbing for friction knots.