Climbing with a pack

The Death of freedom of the hills: Gear wanking.

Jordan Cannon wrote: Climbing with a pack is rarely necessary.
If I need to carry more gear, I’d much rather lead with a tag line and haul a small pack rather than climb with it on my back, because that sucks.

Yes.  On longer, more serious routes using a tag line and hauling a light pack is the way to go.

- Rain jacket/wind breaker? Get one that clips to your harness.

Check.

- Extra layer? Get a light sun hoody that you can twist up and tie around your waist when you don’t need it. Double up with the wind breaker if it gets cold.

The rain jacket IS an extra layer.  A balaclava in your pocket is a better investment.

- Water? Carry a liter (at most) on your harness. Hydrate well the day before and that should be more than enough.

Hydrating the day before is useless if you sweat it all out on the approach.   Carry enough water to hydrate at the base of the route and carry a pint, each, clipped to your harness.

- Food? Carry a few bars in your pocket.

Again, eat and drink at the base of the route, take one food bar if the route is more than about 6 pitches.

- Approach Shoes? Clip them to your haul loop.
- Sunscreen? Put it on at the car or at the base of the climb, then leave it in your pack.

Yup and yup.  Try not to grease up the starting holds please.

- Tag line? Trail it behind you while you climb... no need to coil it at every belay either. Let it hang and have the second manage it with a micro traxion so the leader doesn’t have to carry the full weight of the rope.

You DO need to coil/manage it at each belay.  Having the tag line hanging and blowing in the wind is certain to get it stuck.  The same as for the lead rope.  

- First aid kit? A roll of tape on your chalk belt should do it.

Yup.

- Guidebook? Everyone has a smart phone now a days right?? Take a photo of it on your phone.

Phones are heavy, inflexible, fragile and easy to drop.  Copy the topo onto a piece of paper, one for each climber.   I've done it by hand many times but a xerox machine is a wonderful invention.

- Headlamp? Wear it around your neck or clip it to you’re harness.

Better: get down by dark.  

Definitely no need to train to climb with a pack... just learn how to climb faster, be more efficient, and you will have a lot more fun climbing longer routes overall.
If you’re still attached to the idea of climbing with a pack, just know that you’ll likely never climb anything harder than 5.10 with it on. Pack free is the way to go!

Kinda difficult to climb offwidths or squeezes with one, regardless of grade.  5.9 OW is HARD.

Many great reasons to carry a pack have been discussed. A couple that I don't think have been:

1. There is no way to know, but sometimes I wonder how many accidents and fatalities had dehydration, hunger, or other discomfort (like being cold, wet, or sunburned) as a contributing factor. People who are uncomfortable hurry to get out of that situation. People under stress make mistakes. Dehydration physically impairs cognition.  https://www.healthline.com/health-news/2-hours-dehydration-can-affect-body-and-brain#1

2. Any climbing area's SAR will tell you that X percentage of their rescues could have been avoided if the climbers had been carrying the items they needed. A too-common scenario is climbers who get benighted in an unfamiliar area and can't find the descent route, but they would have been fine if they'd been carrying headlamps and a guidebook. (Yes, I know a lot of people rely on the MP app or take photos from the guidebook on their phones. Which is great until your phone dies, or you drop it, or you didn't download the photos in the MP app while you had a signal, or you forgot to photograph the page with the walk-off info).

You've got a system that works for you and doesn't involve a pack? Great, I'm happy for you. No need to get bent out of shape over people whose system includes a pack. 

Leliko Mana wrote: I specifically bought The Bug bag for multi-pitch because apparently it's the best bag to attach a rope for a long walkout which I do at Lover's Leap.

Ah. So the reason people do this is because we’ve passed into an era where the top of the Leap to the parking lot is “a long walkout”.

L Kap wrote: Many great reasons to carry a pack have been discussed. A couple that I don't think have been:

[snip]

You've got a system that works for you and doesn't involve a pack? Great, I'm happy for you. No need to get bent out of shape over people whose system includes a pack.

Nobody's bent out of shape,  I'm just disheartened by this attitude.  Let's look at Mark's original post:

These days I see people on a three pitch route that they are going to rap wearing packs! Leader and follower!   Why?   I can maybe see it on a 10 pitch alpine route with a long walk off but not on anything you could rap. What are these people carrying?

Three pitches on a route you can rappel and both climbers wearing packs.    Defend that as you will, create special-case exceptions if you want, but in general there is clearly a lack of competency.   Period.

John Byrnes wrote:

Nobody's bent out of shape,  I'm just disheartened by this attitude.  Let's look at Mark's original post:

These days I see people on a three pitch route that they are going to rap wearing packs! Leader and follower!   Why?   I can maybe see it on a 10 pitch alpine route with a long walk off but not on anything you could rap. What are these people carrying?

Three pitches on a route you can rappel and both climbers wearing packs.    Defend that as you will, create special-case exceptions if you want, but in general there is clearly a lack of competency.   Period.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I've been climbing trad since 2004 and have done hundreds of multi-pitch routes happily and safely, which is my definition of competency. I prefer to climb multi-pitch with a pack for multiple reasons. I know my body and my experiences. I don't prioritize speed and grades over safety and enjoyment. If I'm climbing at my limit on a Layton Kor 5.8 with a pack while you're over there pushing a 5.11 line without one, why do you care? I like having what I need with me, I like being accustomed to climbing with a pack for when I'm doing long alpine, and I like being able to help other climbers. On many on occasions on short multi-pitch, I have been off the ground and shared water, food, pain meds, sunscreen, guidebook, clean-up kit when someone touched poison ivy or rat poop, etc. Just last month a hail storm opened up over me while I was in the middle of pitch 2 of a 3-pitch alpine route. I was glad to have my rain jacket, even though according to the forecast I shouldn't have needed it. You don't have to have the same preferences I do, but this particular preference is not an indication of lack of experience or competence.  

And as previously discussed, neither you nor the OP know why the pair in the original post were wearing packs. They could have been training for an all-day Yosemite alpine objective. Maybe it was a mentor and a new climber who knew they would be slow and need water. Maybe they both weren't used to altitude, dehydrate easily, and like to have water mid-pitch.

My point is, why do you care? Why does anyone feel the need to look down on another climber (or get "disheartened by [their] attitude") because they choose to climb with a pack?

I am in general disheartened by the attitude that fast and light is the "one true way" of climbing. It may be trendy right now, but it's not the only legit way to climb. 

Yep. What I read was a buncha bs justification for not leaving shit you will never use on the ground.

These people never get up anything. 

Mark Hudon wrote: These days I see people on a three pitch route that they are going to rap wearing packs! Leader and follower!

Why?

I can maybe see it on a 10 pitch alpine route with a long walk off but not on anything you could rap. What are these people carrying?

I see it too and I'm with you. Climbing with a pack sucks (leader or follower) and we always try to avoid it unless it is truly called for. 

Here’s my solution to the 3-pitch should I carry a pack dilemma:

Mammut Multipitch Chalk Bag
Beal Escaper

Hydrapack Stow .5l

Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody

Jordan and Mark are some of the best in the biz. For long hard routes they are right. I use the tag line method sometimes. Sometimes I climb without a pack. But I like having my stuff with me if I see a long day ahead with hard driving partners who are not going to retreat just because of a few clouds or a light sprinkle. That is just my program and it is not the best method for hard free climbing. As a result I have no problem free climbing to a particular  level and then at the jingus crux gritty finger crack I will just pull on gear. It's called French Free and you don't get a trophy. I prefer a clean free ascent but am more interested to top out doing whatever I have to do. If my friend gets a nice clean ascent and I pull on a couple pieces so what for me and great for them. Everyone has their own reasons and should follow what drives them. What the other person does is of no matter unless one is in some sort of competition either for money or an "Atta boy." 

Mark Hudon wrote: These days I see people on a three pitch route that they are going to rap wearing packs! Leader and follower!

Why?

I can maybe see it on a 10 pitch alpine route with a long walk off but not on anything you could rap. What are these people carrying?

Oh come on, the have the 10 ESSENTIALS.  ;)  You're from the rope/rack/shirt on your back era.  They are dealing with uncertainty and are risk averse.  I sometimes run across my old photos where I'm wearing a pack, and wonder why.  Nowadays everything goes on my harness unless I'm in an alpine setting where I know I won't rappel.  Live and learn.  

Oh, and yesterday I noticed a bunch of climbers with little tags attached to their harnesses.  What's that all about?  ;)

Hi Mark, Didn't read through 4 pages...Personally I carry a pack on everything multipitch, even 2-3 pitches, because I'm concerned about theft at the base.  No matter how rare that event might be, losing my phone, car keys and credit card/ID wallet (none of which I want to leave in a locked car) would be a super drag.  But it's a smallish unstructured pack that weighs almost nothing with the above contents.  I frankly don't even notice I have it on.

To each his own.  I can't remember ever climbing with a pack in RMNP, other than when we'd bring one in on the hike in to do the descent off the back side of the Petite.  Otherwise you can pick your pack up at the base or at your bivy site.  A lot of routes we don't use a pack at all, rack up at the car or camp and go.  Jacket, water, maybe shoes on the harness and a bar in your pocket.  What else do you need?  A photocopy of a topo: in your pocket.  I keep my wallet and phone in my pockets wherever I'm climbing, even cragging.  Pockets are good like that.  Packs are good when you're climbing something cold, not returning to the base or need more than a liter of water per person.

Buck Rio wrote:

I'm slow, so anything where I might get benighted I bring a pack. For me that is anything longer than about 7 alpine pitches, or something with a long, tricky descent. Otherwise it stays at the base. 

Having a pack on a borderline long route just means I am guaranteeing a bivy.  I learned on Royal Arches that speed is safety. Being able to see the rappel stations in daylight is more important that having a first aid kit.

I've done Royal Arches too. We ended up doing all 12 or so raps in the rain and the last few in the dark. Of course it would have been better to rap with no rain in daylight, but that wasn't how it turned out for us. RA is an all-day endeavor unless you're soloing or simul-climbing most of it. I was super glad to have a headlamp, rain jacket, food, and water with me. I'm pretty sure we pulled out the guidebook too when the rap stations weren't obvious. 

2 cases of Coors Light. Pinwheels. Big foam cowboy hat. Porn mags.

I'd never bring a pack on a line less than 5 pitches where you can rap pretty much anywhere. I always have a pack on alpine rock, or anything with a complicated decent. 3 pitches? Drink water beforehand,  and throw a beer or 2 in my pocket. 

Buck Rio wrote:

That's my point, by having that stuff, you almost guaranteed an epic. 

Get up EARLY, be the first on the route, simul-climb all the traverse pitches and run it out above pro. Pitching this whole climb out means certain descent in darkness.

Problem usually is all the gumbies clogging up the rappel stations, hanging from tat on trees not in the rappel line etc.

Us having packs did not cause an epic. The packs are not the primary determinant of our climbing speed, and our packs did not cause the rain. I don't simul-climb and I place pro anywhere that a fall would be catastrophic. That's my climbing style. Other folks can feel free to do as they please. I don't sneer at you. If others want to sneer at me, that's their issue.

ETA - I think it's amusing that other people are suggesting ways to bring pretty much the same weight and volume of stuff up the climb, just hanging from your harness instead of in a pack. The pocketed chalk bag and water bottle with a carry handle that Malcolm suggested look like good products to me, and if someone prefers to have that weight on their hips instead of behind their back, sure, whatever works for you. Different people carry their weight differently. If you're a barrel-chested guy who doesn't want any more weight above your waist, cool, do what works for you. I personally have plenty of my body weight below my waist and would rather have a couple of extra pounds of gear centered at my mid-back instead of hanging freely around my ass. For a bunch of individualistic, freedom-loving scamps, some of y'all sure do love to tell others what we should or shouldn't be doing.  

I climb with a pack sometimes to add weight.  When I climbed Snake Dike I carried 1.5 gallons of water, half gallon of gator aid, a quart of coconut water, a watermelon, and other food in my pack.  Doing this definitely made it harder, but eating that watermelon on top of half dome has become one of my favorite climbing memories. 

Four pages and nobody has mentioned this?

http://www.quotetab.com/quote/by-yvon-chouinard/remember-if-you-take-bivouac-equipment-along-you-will-bivouac#ZARd2k3DwY6kycZw.97

If you bring a watermelon along, you will eat watermelon.

Unless you're suffering in the alpine then I don't really see the need. Lighter and faster=less time exposed to potential risk=safer.