Onlooker's Responsibility

GDavis Davis wrote: The problem comes when you THINK they are making these decisions, but those decisions are only unsafe if YOU are doing that. Soloing, not wearing a helmet, running it out, these are subjectively a bad idea. Look more for objectively bad ideas and leave personal bias out of it.

I think this hits the nail on the head for me.

J V wrote: 
I absolutely think it is our responsibility to speak up.  You also absolutely have the authority to say something.  Whether the other person decides to listen or not is another matter.  I felt guilty all weekend when I didn't say something to the guy about his helmet.  I also didn't say anything about his run out because I didn't want to distract him when he was climbing.  Knowing who these guys are now, I don't feel bad at all.  In general, yes I would say something.  The other person could always tell you to "f### off" but I'd rather hear that then have a guilty conscience because someone got hurt or died because I was just too shy to say something.  What does a few words cost you???  

These types of antics are just downright dangerous.  The "experienced" people here can laugh all they want, but at least the gym encourages discussion and is a fun place to be.

While I don't disagree with it being free and harmless to say something, I think there's more subtlety than you're imply in deciding when to say something.  If you saw Honnold chalking up at the base of a climb with no helmet (or harness even!) I really doubt you'd warn him of the danger he was putting himself in. So where do you draw the line?

As an aside, I think the gym isn't particularly relevant here because the safety practices at gyms are in large determined by insurance policy stipulations and liability reduction, and need to be universal and black-and-white.  There's no room for exceptions or caveats, and plenty of practices that might be safe depending on your experience (say practicing jugging or hauling, or downleading, or skipping draws near the top) are forbidden because they're not safe for everyone and rely too much on the judgement of the individual... which is imo the heart of this question.

Don't say something if you'll only confuse the situation more.  I was in BoCo when a belayer took the climber "off belay" when he actually said "in-direct" "slack".  I was about to start yelling to put him back on belay but the climber figured out what was happening and took care of it himself.  If I had started a conversation with the belayer at that time it would have introduced more confusion and could have lead to a dropped climber.  A very tense few minutes and the climber had some words with the belayer when he was back on the ground.

J V wrote: I felt guilty all weekend when I didn't say something to the guy about his helmet.  I also didn't say anything about his run out because I didn't want to distract him when he was climbing.  Knowing who these guys are now, I don't feel bad at all.  In general, yes I would say something.  The other person could always tell you to "f### off" but I'd rather hear that then have a guilty conscience because someone got hurt or died because I was just too shy to say something.  What does a few words cost you???  

Maybe no direct cost to you, but if enough people followed what you say, climbing in the vicinity of other people would become annoying really fast, and climbers would approach each other with animosity and suspicion.  So far climbers are usually friendly by default - a tradition worth keeping.

The factors I would consider:

1) What are the chances the person's actions don't match their intent ?  If you're pretty sure that's the case (e.g. the example somebody mentioned of a leader w/o quickdraws, or a clearly unfinished knot), then definitely say something.

2) Do you have the skills / patience to phrase what you want to say in a non-condenscending / non-annoying way ?  If you do, starting the conversation is likely a good thing even if it ends up useless.  If you don't, that's ok - not everybody was meant to be good at conversations with strangers - but know your limits.

3) Does the behavior you are observing match one of the known "not ideal but commonly done" practices ?  If yes, I say keep your objections to yourself.  It would be pretty annoying, for example, to have people start rappel-vs-lower or bowine-vs-fig. 8 or helmet-vs-no-helmet or how-many-feet-between-placements arguments with strangers at the crag - chances are the person has had that argument with people already.  For this item, broad knowledge of common practices (typically from experience, but potentially also from MP) is important.

This is a great topic to discuss and consider. As climbing grows these situations will only become more frequent. Every single weekend I've been out this year I've observed impromptu lessons on how to belay and clean anchors at the base of both sport and trad crags.

Whether I say something generally depends on whether something is subjective or involves nuance and risk acceptance. Grigri threaded incorrectly? No nuance. Belayer has a lot of slack out that will probably result in a ground fall? Very possibly a nuanced and situational discussion requiring more information. Someone running out 100' between placements on a speed ascent of the Nose? Risk acceptance.

I recently involved myself in a pretty scary situation as an onlooker. A father/son pair were climbing a sport route at Auburn. The teenage son was leading and struggling at the 3rd bolt. We noticed there were no quickdraws on the first two bolts and based on the quality of his movement, it was clear he was not experienced. My girlfriend pointed out he was back-cleaning after realizing they only had two quick draws.

As this was a fairly low-nuance situation, I approached them to discover the climber was "tied in" with a locking biner on a figure-8, and the draw he was hanging on (with none below) was back clipped. I politely said "hey I noticed you guys don't seem to have enough quickdraws. Would you like to borrow some?"

Simply acknowledging this fact was enough to hurt the father's ego and he said "nah we're fine, thanks". I said we were taking a break, I had plenty of draws and it was no problem if it would help them be safer and faster. He said okay and lowered his son down. I gave the kid some draws, and then said "hey I noticed that last draw you're on is back clipped. Are you familiar with back clipping?" The kid was quiet, open, and despite the crusty eye from his dad, I gave a quick demo of why back clipping is bad news. Then the dad went into explaining how he started climbing 30 years ago, knew what he was doing but only brought top rope gear because he thought you could easily get to the top of the crag (which you can only in a few places. He later said he planned to go buy some draws as soon as he got home).

Things were going well so I thought I'd try one more upgrade and suggest that the climber tie in to the rope rather than clip in with a biner. This one additional "suggestion" put a little too much hurt and embarrassment on the dad's ego in front of his kid and it tipped a tenuous scale. "You know, we're fine, just take your gear, thanks." he said. I quickly replied deferentially "it's all good, just want to help and it's the standard and safest way we all do in climbing." He relented, reminded me he learned to climb a long time ago, knew how to tie a figure-8 follow through and proceeded to tie his kid in with a disaster of a messy knot that was at least correct. At this point I knew I hit the limit of what his ego could take.

After 10 years of working on a mountain rescue team, I really believe that most people genuinely make the best decisions they can with the information they have available at the time. This does not excuse anyone for putting themselves and maybe others in danger, but I think this consideration can help even the most experienced, crustiest climbers around here empathize with the gumbies. They want to enjoy the outdoors and not die, just like the rest of us. With that in mind we can approach these situations with passiev, non-confrontational, minimally ego-harming language. "Hey, I noticed _____ is happening and it could be better done this other way" as opposed to "you're doing it wrong, YGD, etc." You may not feel like it's your responsibility to coddle a stranger's ego (it's not), but it's probably necessary to get through and make a connection. And the more gumbies climbing safer with better crag etiquette, the better off we'll all be.

I spoke up once, and basically told a young couple they needed to leave a sport crag, go buy the proper gear, and take a class, read some books, and watch some videos. I was very polite, and kept reiterating that I was speaking up for their own safety. They were a little bummed and rightfully frustrated, but in the end they thanked me, and packed up and left.

I will speak up again if I see someone in over their heads that has no idea they are being unsafe. People who know what they are doing, and it happens to be unsafe, that's their business; soloing, runouts, no helmet, etc.

For me its pretty basic..  
Ill say something if I see someone doing something that I would want to be told if I was doing it.

If you're looking for a set of rules for when is "appropriate" to interject, none exists, nor will it. Someone is always going to say you should have minded your own business, and someone is always going to say you should have interjected, no matter what you do.

Stop looking for other people's approval of your actions. Choose your actions based on your judgment of what you think will happen and whether you want and can handle that result, rather than based on a set of rules that nobody is going to agree upon.

J V wrote: I'm glad you posted this Matt.  Hopefully there are some meaningful discussions by the community instead of a few people shouting others down.

I absolutely think it is our responsibility to speak up.  You also absolutely have the authority to say something.  Whether the other person decides to listen or not is another matter.  I felt guilty all weekend when I didn't say something to the guy about his helmet.  I also didn't say anything about his run out because I didn't want to distract him when he was climbing.  Knowing who these guys are now, I don't feel bad at all.  In general, yes I would say something.  The other person could always tell you to "f### off" but I'd rather hear that then have a guilty conscience because someone got hurt or died because I was just too shy to say something.  What does a few words cost you???  

These types of antics are just downright dangerous.  The "experienced" people here can laugh all they want, but at least the gym encourages discussion and is a fun place to be.

If you think somebody is going to have some sort of epiphany when a stranger extols the virtues of a helmet or not running it out, I think you need some more life experience. Your advice appears to be very inward facing. 

Tradiban wrote:

If you think somebody is going to have some sort of epiphany when a stranger extols the virtues of a helmet or not running it out, I think you need some more life experience. Your advice appears to be very inward facing. 

Agreed. 

Sometimes you have to step in to advocate for people who clearly can’t advocate for themselves, like kids.   When you see a dad tying 1/4” hardware store rope around his 7 yr old son’s  waist and telling him how he’s gonna climb this “cliff” yadda yadda.....you can’t just walk on even though one look at “dad” tells you “this is gonna get ugly”

Mind your own buisness let people make their own mistakes and decisions. Why not let natural selection weed out the ones who are unfit.

Wasn't life threatening but I recently made a z clip on a closely bolted sport route. Guys climbing next to me pointed it out. Did I thank him? Nope, if i hadn't been focused on my climb i would have told him to fuck off and mind his own buisness. Why? Because I wasn't in real danger he was just being a nosey know it all. If i had climbed a couple more feet and had my mistake force me back down to fix I would have learned my lesson. Thanks to some self righteous stranger I learned nothing.

Point is people need to make mistakes to learn from them dont be that guy taking my learning experience away from me before i have it. If it kills me then it's still none your buisness.

Ben Pellerin wrote: Mind your own buisness let people make their own mistakes and decisions. Why not let natural selection weed out the ones who are unfit.

Wasn't life threatening but I recently made a z clip on a closely bolted sport route. Guys climbing next to me pointed it out. Did I thank him? Nope, if i hadn't been focused on my climb i would have told him to fuck off and mind his own buisness. Why? Because I wasn't in real danger he was just being a nosey know it all. If i had climbed a couple more feet and had my mistake force me back down to fix I would have learned my lesson. Thanks to some self righteous stranger I learned nothing.

Point is people need to make mistakes to learn from them dont be that guy taking my learning experience away from me before i have it. If it kills me then it's still none your buisness.

People can’t learn from their mistakes if they’re dead. Having a learning experience implies you survive the experience...

Lena chita wrote

While this is correct for your tripled sling with two 'biners, aka 'trad draw", it is not true for a SPORT quickdraw. 

A sport draw has a non-symmetrical dogbone, a rope-side biner, and a bolt-side biner. It is not going to explode and kill you the moment you clipped it upside-down (hence my statement of "nobody is in immediate danger"). But if you do actually fall on your sport climbs a lot, the bolt-side biner can become notched, and if you then flip it over and clip a rope into it, you can damage the sheath in a subsequent fall.

Also, the looser end of the dogbone is supposed to be nearer to the bolt, while the tighter side of the dogbone (often with a rubber gasket) is for the rope-end biner. This orientation allows the dogbone to move without also moving (and potentially cross-loading) the biner that is clipped to the bolt.

While small burrs might develop on the 'bolt' side of draws that is not a major risk in climbing. As climbers we need to inspect our gear and make sure these burrs don't get out of hand as they can develop not just on hangers but a variety of metals. 

I'm glad you described to me what a quickdraw was, after 19 years of climbing I finally figured out that all-important rubber gasket (that many find very, very problematic). The tighter part of the dogbone is NOT to prevent cross loading but to keep the biner from swiveling to make it easier to clip. Often times I will flip draws purposefully (gasp!) upside down to make it easier to clean if I have two followers (common practice).

Your post also reiterates my point that when you decide you are going to speak up it should be for objective danger, rather than subjective. Jokes aside, I do not use a stick clip and unless I feel particularly froggy I probably won't anytime soon (I climb plenty of routes with high first bolts). I also don't think the idea that telling someone their draws are "upside down" to be risk management. It is something you learned about and its a fun little fact and idea but real world application it is not a concern for climbers unless you do not inspect your gear.

Subjective -> objective

GDavis Davis wrote: I'm glad you described to me what a quickdraw was, after 19 years of climbing I finally figured out that all-important rubber gasket (that many find very, very problematic). The tighter part of the dogbone is NOT to prevent cross loading but to keep the biner from swiveling to make it easier to clip. Often times I will flip draws purposefully (gasp!) upside down to make it easier to clean if I have two followers (common practice).

I believe that the floppy end is intentionally floppy in order to help its carabiner not get into weird interactions with the bolt hanger.

(i.e. upside-down draws may be more likely to unclip/nose-hook/etc)

GDavis Davis wrote:

While small burrs might develop on the 'bolt' side of draws that is not a major risk in climbing. As climbers we need to inspect our gear and make sure these burrs don't get out of hand as they can develop not just on hangers but a variety of metals. 

When did I say that it is a major risk? I specifically said that this falls under category of nobody is in danger, but it is a better practice. 
My original post talked about three categories: immediate danger, grey zone, and situations that fall under categories of better practice, rather than safety. The quickdraws and stick clips were listed under the third category. 

I'm glad you described to me what a quickdraw was, after 19 years of climbing I finally figured out that all-important rubber gasket (that many find very, very problematic). The tighter part of the dogbone is NOT to prevent cross loading but to keep the biner from swiveling to make it easier to clip. Often times I will flip draws purposefully (gasp!) upside down to make it easier to clean if I have two followers (common practice).

Reading comprehension fail on your part. I never said that the tighter end prevents cross loading. I said that the LOOSER end allows the dog bone to move. 

And read again what I said: I wouldn’t tell the climber that he was doing something dangerous. I would simply ask the climber if he had clipped the draw upside down on purpose. 

In your case, you’d tell me yes. And maybe explain your reasoning to me. And I would leave you be, regardless of what I think of your reasoning. 

Five years in, I have amassed at least a reasonable amount of exposure to ideas and methods to not be an abject beginner. However, five years in, is still not much experience. So I consider myself a beginner, and will always have more to learn. Honestly, that's part of the joy, the unending learning curve.

Beginner or no, I still have enough information that I can help other people, and do. I also understand, that even if you are an expert, mistakes can happen. All of us, have more to learn, more to experience.

I am also a ridiculously short, ancient, old lady. Not exactly intimidating. 

So I simply offer, or ask, if it seems reasonable, crag, gym, and on here. "Hey, our stick clip is right there, if you guys wanna borrow it." "We have a rope up, would you like a lap?" "Hey, you want me to show you _____?"  If you are insulted by that, offered in friendship, that's your problem, not mine.

I also ask. "Hey, if you don't mind, what is that you're belaying with?" "Wow! That was awesome! How did you do that?" "How do you like the Ohm?" And I learn, and expand friendships.

I also listen. Believe it or not. Some of you have confused obedience with listening, lol! As with all of you, I have to find my own way. That's a big part of this thing we do. Get all the info you want, sooner or later, it's all on you.

And, even as a "beginner", sooner or later, you will be the "most experienced" in the group. That, has happened quite a few times, and is when it needs to be stripped down to the basics, and kept super clear. When I found myself next to a group of four young people, who were very clearly brand new to outside? Darn straight I offered help, gently, to the white faced "lead" climber, staring up at a first clip way, way, off the deck. I ended up staying with them, help gratefully accepted, including cleaning the anchor for them. Which no one had ever done.

No "authority". No "obligation". Except friendship and brotherhood of the rope. This is my family, I can't not care.

Best, Helen

Justin Peacock wrote:  My girlfriend pointed out he was back-cleaning after realizing they only had two quick draws.

As this was a fairly low-nuance situation, I approached them to discover the climber was "tied in" with a locking biner on a figure-8, and the draw he was hanging on (with none below) was back clipped. I politely said "hey I noticed you guys don't seem to have enough quickdraws. Would you like to borrow some?"

Most people forget/dont realize that a single biner can replace a draw. If you have 2 draws, you have four biners, worst case, not that this would have gotten them to the top in this scenario.

J V wrote:

You can’t help but ruin every thread can you?  Anything to constructive to contribute?  Talk about anger issues. 

JV I love your posts. 

For the noobs, wondering about when to speak up: if you're not sure whether you should or not, do it by asking a question. For example: "hey that's an interesting way of tying in...why did you do it that way? I learned a retraced figure 8" then they say "oh it's a double bowline on a bight, it's way easier to untie after you whip" or maybe "oh shit, I didn't realize I tied that incorrectly". If you're afraid to do this maybe it is your own ego that needs checked.

I am an experienced climber but I still do this because I am sometimes wrong. I saw some dudes climbing at Foster Falls when I visited the area recently. One was lead belaying the other with a large, cumbersome looking device. Not concerned they were being unsafe, but thinking it was simple n00bery (i.e., useless gear collecting behavior), I asked what the device was (Wildcountry Revo). I then asked if it offered any advantages over a grigri, and learned that it can be used as a rope solo device~! Cool!

I had incorrectly judged the guy a n00b because he was climbing 5.8 with an unconventional belay device (say what you want about this but 95% of the time the experienced, strong climbers are using grigris or occasionally an atc), but suspended my initial judgment, and learned something.

Looking past all the tangents on this (and every other thread) the original question is a good one.  I had one time 17 years ago that I kept my mouth shut & watched a guy deck because of it.  That same morning I had a guy climbing near us point out that our anchor could have a safer setup.  It was non-threatening & I still regret that I didn't learn from his example & open my mouth.  Now whenever I'm near a wall if I'm not climbing or belaying I'm scoping out every setup around me.  I know I've avoided one disaster and have made a few corrections.  I've also learned a lot.  Sometimes I'll ask about a setup and then be educated about why it's that way.  I've never had someone get mad at me.  It never hurts to say, "Hey I noticed XXX is different.  Is that on purpose?"