How have challenged yourself in Trad?

As someone who is working on climbing harder, I find myself wondering how others have challenged themselves over their years in trad climbing.
Challenging ourselves definitely looks different depending on one’s definition of the concept. I’m hoping to get some insight from folks who have been doing this longer than I have about how they have progressed in this discipline of the sport. 

While this is not my main motivation for climbing, for better or worse right now climbing harder to me is represented by climbing harder grades and doing so as cleanly and efficiently as I can. That involves physical, mental, technical and logistical challenges. I learned trad from an old timer and ground up onsight/flash is the gold standard I have been encouraged to follow. How do you do it?

hangdogging is literally aid

In my experience, the best way to push your onsight/flash level is to work on things that you can't flash, and do hard individual moves. I'd agree that onsight/flash is the gold standard, but if thats the only thing you do its going to be hard to learn how to pull hard, and know where your actual physical limit is. Hangdogging on trad routes if you're comfortable falling on gear or toproping are good ways to push yourself on harder routes.

I know trad people usually hate bouldering, but I have found it definitely helps if you spend time in the gym bouldering instead of on ropes.

I don't see much of a difference between pushing harder on trad vs sport. Obviously they are technically different things but the process of improving seems the same.

If you are more physically fit, you can climb harder. You have to accept the risks of this climb before you can climb it. Projecting a climb takes time, probably hanging on gear (or bolts) and taking falls.

So maybe it's more productive to isolate what's making trad seem different. Is it because climbing cracks is a strange technique? Is it because you've never weighted gear and don't trust it? Is it because a lot of people work trad climbing up to be this 'next level' thing?

*Edit*
Intentionally running it out unnecessarily on easy terrain is never something I would recommend

Harder sport climb. YES.
Run out/ free solo at very comfortable grades. YES with caution
TR then lead, also yes.
A variation of this is to also find a sport route that you can climb quite well, but also has the gear placements to lead trad, then if you get scarred or cant find the gear, you can clip a bolt and feel safe. Been doing that recently and seems to work really well.
Also could set up a mock lead where you have a top rope and place gear and clip a second rope to your pieces of protection. If you have a second belay, they can clip into the rope going to the gear and take a practice fall.

Trad climbing is about efficiency. It's much more challenging to carry a rack of gear, keep track of it, and use the right piece at the right time than it is to clip a bolt. The best way to improve at trad climbing is to lead a LOT of trad pitches, regardless of grade level, and learn to minimize wasted energy. The crux of a route at your grade limit will feel more reasonable if you are confident in your ability to read and protect the route as quickly as possible.    

Pushing yourself and taking falls on your gear when you know it's bomber and the fall is clean.
I've done that using double ropes with two different pros.

Ramzi K wrote: In all seriousness, I spent the winter bouldering so I could work on footwork and tackle how I approach cruxes.  I've seen a noticeable improvement.

That being said, bouldering has done nothing for my crack climbing technique.

Want to get stronger at trad? Learn how to climb crack.

I've experienced the opposite.  I don't boulder very often since I always seem to get injured, but when I've mixed in periods of hard bouldering into my regular routine, I perform noticeably better on any trad objectives (most of which are cracks).  The techniques are different, but general attributes like power and lock off ability, compression, etc. definitely transfer over.  Especially as you start getting into the harder crack climbs where it isn't slammer hands all the way up.

Yes, every trad climb is a challenge...thats why I like it (or maybe I'm just not that good) 

Here is my ideal, or what I strive for, in trad--it feels great when it works out: Lead the pitch or pitches onsight with no falls or hangs and with good, smooth technique. All (or most!) protection is solid and the first piece you pick fits perfectly. Nothing falls out or walks as you climb above it. You extend (or not) your pro so the rope runs nicely while minimizing any unnecessary fall distance. Your belay anchors go in smoothly, quickly, and are solid. Your second climbs efficiently with no falls or hangs or stuck/dropped gear. Second arrives at belay with gear already pre-racked and sorted. You swap leads efficiently. And so on... so, to me, the challenge is not only the difficulty of the climbing but also how well you put together your protection system and how efficiently you climb as a team. When it flows, it's great. When it doesn't, you feel like a bumbling noob. Just my two cents as an old guy who doesn't climb very hard.

Daniel Joder wrote: Here is my ideal, or what I strive for, in trad--it feels great when it works out: Lead the pitch or pitches onsight with no falls or hangs and with good, smooth technique. All (or most!) protection is solid and the first piece you pick fits perfectly. Nothing falls out or walks as you climb above it. You extend (or not) your pro so the rope runs nicely while minimizing any unnecessary fall distance. Your belay anchors go in smoothly, quickly, and are solid. Your second climbs efficiently with no falls or hangs or stuck/dropped gear. Second arrives at belay with gear already pre-racked and sorted. You swap leads efficiently. And so on... so, to me, the challenge is not only the difficulty of the climbing but also how well you put together your protection system and how efficiently you climb as a team. When it flows, it's great. When it doesn't, you feel like a bumbling noob. Just my two cents as an old guy who doesn't climb very hard.

Joder, Daniel! I wanna pay you a visit!

(Sorry, just can't resist the pun, although you've probably gotten tired of it)

Speaking personally I find highball bouldering to be a good heads up trainer for the more runout leads. I'm currently training my son for traditional leading, starting out with easy for him sport routes which have gear placements available, I follow and critique his placements. He can then graduate on to pure traditional climbs of about the same rating.

Pushing grades isn't a sole priority for my goals with trad climbing. Yes I want to break into 10s and maybe one day 11s. I know once I am at a level of onsighting 10s you unlock a lot more climbs, especially in the alpine but to a point. It's gotta be a climb worth my time since it is so limited in climbing. I am more motivated tackling larger multi-pitches or moderate alpine routes out there than maxing out my trad grade asap.

That said to answer some of your questions:

Do you push harder on sport climbing and move up trad grades naturally once you’ve stablished a new level on bolts?
Naturally yes, though I do not do sport outside much, cause I'd rather do trad. But I did find that trad and sport are different styles in terms of technique and mindset. Trad I am much more cautious and if I do not feel comfortable pulling a move I'll asses, nest some gear, backdown to a good rest and keep trying. Sport is so much more about momentum, so when I come off a huge weekend of trad climbing and go to the gym for long sport sessions I find myself having to break through this cautious mental barrier to just go for it. Once it's broken I am pushing grades and really finessing my technique - it certainly helps for the next time getting out there.

Do you intentionally run out gear at grades you are comfortable with in order to up your mental game?
Certainly do on easier routes, especially if I have done them and know the crux spots. Like Daniel Joder said, when craggin Trad climbs I am always striving for perfection in placements, extensions, transitions and overall workflow. It's also good headspace training for alpine climbing.

TR then lead?
Done this with some friends that want to push grades and mock lead something to see if it's possible. No shame, though you lose the onsight, but who cares? If thats your goal, by all means get yourself there. TRing is just a tool to access climbs. If Im single pitch cragging I'll try to find a harder route that we can toprope after zipping up a moderate. It's another game of efficiency, climb as much as you can when you can.

Hangdog for days?
Sure, just know when to quit and not backup a climb for others not to enjoy.

All of the above and more?
Sure. Say you love Satan and accept the risks.

Fuck it, just climb harder and see what happens?
Yeah, if it looks climbable to you, fuck it, go for it, trad is all about the adventure and I love how some areas are kept out of the guide books and are meant to be discovered on a individual experience. One time I climbed with a new friend, first climb we did was a 5.2 and I ended up on a 5.7 on the 2nd pitch thinking I was still on the 5.2. Once I realized it I hyped myself up and lead my first 5.7 at the Gunks (I had followed it yeaars ago). Sometimes you just have to go for it. Just don't be an idiot or YGD.

Ramzi K wrote:

That being said, bouldering has done nothing for my crack climbing technique. 

How contrarian of you, but you missed the point.  Key-word: "technique".  Bouldering isn't going to teach you how to stack hands, fist jam, finger lock, chicken wing, etc...unless you're climbing a boulder with a dominate crack feature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VytLGsGkNm0 

I'm not trying to be contrarian, and I still think I disagree.  There comes a point where crack climbing technique, itself, relies on some prerequisite skills/strength that can be trained through bouldering.  You can't execute a difficult finger lock if your fingers are weak as shit.  You can't fist jam up a wide crack if you don't have body awareness, footwork, and the ability to use body tension to hold yourself to the rock.  

I'll give you an example.  At my gym, there is a finger crack that usually goes at 11a (depending on how the feet are set).  I struggled on that thing for a long time.  The first time I sent it clean (and almost with ease, which was a total surprise), I was coming off a 6 week bouldering routine where I didn't touch anything remotely similar to crack.  It's not like I had an epiphany and suddenly learned the secret to finger locks.  I got stronger and was able to apply that strength I gained bouldering to the techniques I was applying to the finger crack.  

I think I heard this from an interview with Topher D.  Something like "you should start off either pushing your physical limits, or the complexity of protecting the route, but NEVER both"  The point is, if you're going to get in over your head based on physical ability, make sure the route protects easily.  

Do you push harder on sport climbing and move up trad grades naturally once you’ve established a new level on bolts?

Yes.  While crack-specific technique can certainly be a limiting factor, when entering into "harder" traditionally protected lines, you can't get around the physical demands without having a solid baseline of strength, technique, and endurance.

Do you intentionally run out gear at grades you are comfortable with in order to up your mental game?

No.  Running it out on easier grades is a by-product of your strength and comfort.  

TR then lead?

Sure, why not?  Especially if the gear is dicey.

Hangdog for days?

Also guilty of it.  How else are you going to figure out the sequence to that crux?

All of the above and more?

Yes.  Start out pushing yourself on single pitch lines with easy gear.  

Fuck it, just climb harder and see what happens?

No.  Climbing hard, traditional lines requires a lot of background work and a solid foundation.  Turn up the intensity slowly, over time.

I've placed C3s and X4s without carrying along the comparison chart

Something not mentioned yet:
Practice and become confident in downclimbing a grade or two below your limit. Once you know this skill, you'll be more confident in moving up, check for gear/holds then step down to the nearest good stance for a rest. Just "blindly" rushing into a crux or a longer sequence of unknown terrain can be mentally hard. If you need to pull a crux (because you don't know how to step down) just after fiddling with gear in a dicey stance, you'll be tired even before hitting the crux. This "technique" is not suitable for all types of climbing, as for example a pure crack climb often has no need for looking for gear or holds.

plantmandan wrote: Trad climbing is about efficiency. It's much more challenging to carry a rack of gear, keep track of it, and use the right piece at the right time than it is to clip a bolt. The best way to improve at trad climbing is to lead a LOT of trad pitches, regardless of grade level, and learn to minimize wasted energy. The crux of a route at your grade limit will feel more reasonable if you are confident in your ability to read and protect the route as quickly as possible.    

The above is really good advice.  I can think of multiple times watching somebody pump out while trying to place the wrong piece or not knowing where the correct piece is racked on their harness.

I personally spent a number of years trying to go for quantity of trad pitches instead of difficulty.  Now years later I am coming at it from a pushing grades side, and it is going well.  I can be confident knowing I have the other stuff dialed and focus strictly on improving technique and strength.  For technique I find that picking a particular style of crack (offwidth, ring locks, hands, etc) and then practicing it over and over helps the improvement.  I would also recommend taking Pease's "The Crack Climbers Technique Manual" and reference it after each practice lap.  For me, this helped fine tune my technique and efficiency of jamming.  There is a ton of different opinions on ways to improve strength.  This year I have used Limit Bouldering and Hangboarding and it as helped.  I pretty much follow something in Steve Bechtel's Logical Progression book.

One last note, whatever you do you want to be able to trust your gear placements.  Knowing what is a good and what is a bad placement let's you make better decisions about gear placements and qualms your fear of falling on gear (when appropriate).  For this there isn't much better than tricky aid placements.  I learned a lot about what would and wouldn't hold once I started down the aid route.

I’ve pushed myself in many different ways with trad, because there are so many ways to push, and what you do will depend on what you want. I guess the big 3 I look at are hard, bold, and big.

On safe routes I’ve worked to push grade by doing hard things and taking falls (particularly true on crack climbs). Onsighting routes is great and I'm always happiest to get the onsight, but life is too short for me to avoid climbing a great line that I could fall on just to save it for some unknown future day when I feel certain I'll get it clean the first go.

I’ve worked a lot on being comfortable with big safe falls well above gear, since sometimes on a climb it makes sense to push through a hard section after getting good (and redundant) gear and risking the big whip rather than fiddling gear in and blowing the route from that. (This is something I've gradually come around to, coming with better confidence in gear placements, and I still always make sure I have two good pieces between me and serious consequences)

I’ve also worked to get comfortable on R/X-rated runouts, starting with bold routes well within my grade but gradually getting closer to the grades I pretty much always onsight.  This has been from lots of climbing in areas where boldness is a thing, and being inspired by bold lines. Getting comfortable downclimbing has been key for this and for soloing. Being comfortable running it out and soloing on easy ground has helped with pushing big alpine objectives that would be tedious to pitch out or protect thoroughly.

Pure mileage on gear has done wonders for efficiency, which others have mentioned is key.  Less gear faff means less energy and time wasted. More confidence in gear from more experience allows you to more confidently push yourself. Getting quicker and anchors and changeovers makes larger multipitch objectives more realistic. More mileage has also gotten me better at climbing well outdoors, particularly for all the sizes of crack since that's outside of what you run into clipping bolts or in gyms.

For TR rehearsal, I don’t do it much because I can’t be bothered, but I’ve shunted routes to work out beta after having tried it ground up to ensure I got a redpoint later and didn’t waste partner’s time.  For bold routes at or close to your limit there is no shame in headpointing.  Sure, onsight/ground up is better but being alive is best.

Outdoors, 9/10 times I am trying to do trad, but I do a lot of gym climbing and do a lot of indoor leading with the express goal of improving endurance and a lot of bouldering to get stronger/better with tricky cruxes. Since the closest crag to me mostly pushes the mental rather than physical game in climbing, I do find myself climbing indoors frequently even when the weather is good just to make sure I can efficiently get a lot of pumpy climbing in to keep my strength up

Edit: For context and to save you the effort of checking my tick list, broadly the upper end of my trad ticks goes into 5.11- for hard trad (often taking a fall or two), 5.10 for bold trad, and 5.10- for alpine rock. In UK grades, E3 is my go to, just crossing into E4.  About 2.5 years of trad climbing under my belt.

I don't really challenge myself on climbing difficulty in trad. Instead, I challenge myself in mental and physical endurance by leading big (to me) multipitch climbs. Each pitch will be easy on its own, but putting them all together in a long day adds challenge.

For me the limiting factor has always been efficiency with gear. All my improvements in trad have come from getting better at that. Practice makes perfect. I'm probably at the place, now, where I should start pushing my comfort level on what I can actually get up and start taking whips on gear like I do on bolts. But that's skeery!