Trad lead practice?

Jaren Watson wrote: Steve,
If you decide to descend from your mountain hideout in McCall and come to the Black Cliffs, there are several dozen bolted routes that should have been left alone since they take excellent gear.

The upside is that it provides a convenient opportunity to practice with close to zero risk. Quite a few of them are in the 5.7-5.8 range.

@Steve, if you are down here, I'll happily belay you! Don't need a third, just the sort of routes Jaren suggests, and patience while the other dinks around, if you are okay with leading sport. Or, some, can be set up for top rope from the top, if that's your preference. Honestly, though, if you want to be on top rope, I'd just climb with a second set of partners. More ropes equal more climbing! Or have an old lady lead. I can get partway up a few of those suckers at least....

@Jaren, which routes are you thinking of? I know some of them, that really beg some gear or face ground fall, like Fat Ankles (those tiny brassies! Yay!), which people keep picking to get on. Ugh.

Thanks for all your encouragement on this thread, Jaren. After all, you ​are the one who advocates I lead gear at City this year, on that other thread (thanks a bunch for those route suggestions, too)! I am grateful we are friends now, sir. I think we both had to swallow some pride to get here. At least I did. But without that (largely false) chutzpah? I wouldn't have survived the last few years. You know my backstory, now.

Thanks all. Truly, you have helped me hugely over the years!

Best, Helen

I've done the top rope backup for lead falls on gear on several occasions, and it works great. It does require 2 belayers (though you can probably mimic the 2nd belayer by just tying off the top rope at a predetermined level of slack so you don't hit the ground), but it's a great way to take falls on your gear with minimal consequence.

OLH, with all due respect, you're suffering from a bit of analysis paralysis. There's no amount of mock leading that's going to make you 100% comfortable with real leading on gear. I know you've done a lot of placing gear at ground level and understand the moving pieces of that. If you want to lead on gear just find a climb that's well within your ability level and sew that mofo up with tons of gear. Where an experienced climber might place a piece every 10 feet you can put a piece every 3. Go ahead. That will give you plenty of practice placing gear and, also, redundancy if you fall and a piece blows. Practice makes perfect.

@senor, I have an odd way of processing. It actually involves not much thought, in the way logical, linear folks attack problems. I tend to just throw a pile of random variables into the pot, and let them "stew" awhile. Eventually, an answer pops to the surface. Also, I know if I can picture whatever it is in my head, literally "see" myself doing it, even a completely new skill like ice climbing, I will be able to give it a shot. If I can't "picture" it, I can muddle through,but I will never be any good at it (housecleaning. Ugh.).

So? I have lead very little outside, partly because of our anchors being out of reach for me from the "last" stance, or, the top bit being a lot harder than the grade for me, like the crux on Sweet Adene. Not whining, it's just what I have to work with. This year, I finally getting strong enough I have a whole lot more resources. It also helps that, with a lot of work, my knees are more willing to bend. I can finally, sometimes, rock up onto a foot, without having to add a half pull-up or a push to get there. Waaaay more fun!

I am not afraid of leads, including gear. I simply want to test the confidence that I have, in what my eyes are seeing. I "see" passive placements, pretty easily but need to consciously train for cams.

Thanks! I'm climbing this weekend, but at a comp! It will be a bit before I can get back outside, work is abysmally over the top right now, but I promise I'll put in gear, and let you know how it goes!

Thanks, Jaren. Stems and Jammies is pretty special to me. I know I will be on gear on it, sooner or later.

Edit to add, from five years ago:

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote: 
So? I have lead very little outside, partly because of our anchors being out of reach for me from the "last" stance,

A cheater draw should fix that for you. Get a Madrock Trigger Wire biner and put it on a "stiffie" draw. That will increase your reach by more than a foot. 

I think mock leading has value, moreso if you aren't a strong climber and don't have many routes to choose from. The top rope belay can be tight or loose depending on your comfort level with the climbing. It's a safe way to practice and figure out if you are ready to lead a particular climb.

Another method for mock leading with just one rope and one belayer is to tie in to both ends of the rope. Clip the trailing end behind you through the pieces. Works just fine on any pitch under 30 meters where there is a bit of extra rope piled at the belayer's feet.

With the utmost respect, Helen you really shouldn't take lead falls on the grades you climb, regardless of it's on bolts or trad gear or backed up with a slack toprope. It's just not all that safe to lead fall on easy routes. Too low angle, too many ledges, etc. Catch your foot on something and find yourself out for months with a broken ankle. You've seen how what should have been a super short fall can end up being much longer.

Place gear on mock lead or even just while top-roping and have someone inspect it. I guess the aid thing would be good too, though kinda a hassle. Once you're confident you know what a good piece looks like, then you can lead routes you won't fall on.

nathanael wrote: With the utmost respect, Helen you really shouldn't take lead falls on the grades you climb, regardless of it's on bolts or trad gear or backed up with a slack toprope. It's just not all that safe to lead fall on easy routes. Too low angle, too many ledges, etc. Catch your foot on something and find yourself out for months with a broken ankle. You've seen how what should have been a super short fall can end up being much longer.

Place gear on mock lead or even just while top-roping and have someone inspect it. I guess the aid thing would be good too, though kinda a hassle. Once you're confident you know what a good piece looks like, then you can lead routes you won't fall on.

With respect back at ya....I can't take even the approaches for granted, not with arthritis in both knees. Even a dinky, short, boulder fall could cost me my mobility, not just an "oops" for part of a season. It is always possible for one or both knees to "lock up" or buckle. It's not happened while actually climbing....yet. I've had both happen going up and down the trail, however. That's part of the price of being...no longer young.

If I wait until I am "safe" on any given climb, we are back to knitting. Everything local is above my grade, if it means assuming I will never fall. My knees guarantee that as a possibility.

So? What to do?

Climb anyway. Accept that I have challenges. Know that there are risks.

Just like every other climber who is no longer a brash noob and has acquired some sense, lol!

I boulder...with a very conscientious partner, and a plan to get off the sucker before I ever start up it.

I have climbed ice...with a full team assist, and on top rope. I love it, by the way.

I have been leading, sport, including onsights, for a few years...but not often, and very picky what I will try.

I fall while climbing. Sometimes, many, many times, if I am "stuck" at a particular point. Including on lead. No, I will not treat gear as I would bolts. No "sprad"!

I lower. I climb the route next door, on top rope. I only climb the bottom two thirds, knowing there's a big bulge up top. I down climb. I cheat.

I chase learning, and keep after it.

And have fun!

Unlike many, you see, I can't just assume I can climb something. I have to look at every single climb, and assess, every time. I've down climbed on lead, and same on boulders. I stick clip, and will have no shame "cheating" on routes. Part of why I really need to learn gear is to help bring that grade back down to "doable", at 4'11", not very bendy, and still building skills and strength (the last amazes me!).

So thank you so much, I don't disagree with you at all. How your advice is applied, however? Maybe not what you would expect. :-)

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:  Part of why I really need to learn gear is to help bring that grade back down to "doable", at 4'11", not very bendy, and still building skills and strength (the last amazes me!).

Helen, your point about using gear to bring the grade down to doable is a great one. One idea is to start using gear to "French Free" your way through those tough sections on your local sport climbs. Some may scoff but I think French freeing is actually a great way to learn whether your placement is good or not. And it will get you up things you otherwise couldn't. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

Helen, your point about using gear to bring the grade down to doable is a great one. One idea is to start using gear to "French Free" your way through those tough sections on your local sport climbs. Some may scoff but I think French freeing is actually a great way to learn whether your placement is good or not. And it will get you up things you otherwise couldn't. 

Hey, I host people here, on our local stuff. My tiniest gear was very gratefully placed by a very good climber....when they realized it is somewhat old school bolting here. Fall, you may deck. Between bolt 2 and 3, sometimes even higher. Cheat off to the side, even on top rope, you are looking at slamming into the dihedral when you pendulum back. You darn well better have an idea what your falls will be like.

Falling intentionally on gear isn't what I meant, but fully weighting the line is pretty important, for learning what it might have done, in a fall. Frank gave a totally simple answer to that.

All, this information is great! I always assume many more read these things, and sometimes that even prompts me to ask questions, on behalf of others who are even more noob than I.

Last? Boy, was I ever surprised, and touched, yesterday. This, awaited me when I got home. It was a tough day in a hard week, in a difficult stretch of time. Whoever you are....thank you.

Best, Helen

How about having a rope hanging down beside your route and using, say, fig8s on bight on it to clip into as occasional 'infallible' backup runners. Could climb on two half ropes with one reserved for the backup protection (on the rope anchored at the top) and the other for the practice gear, so the practice rope protection would be independent regarding gear lifting out etc. Only one belayer would be needed.
This is a slightly nutty suggestion, hopefully someone will point out the flaws!
(I've sometimes clipped my harness into knots on the bight when climbing back up beside a rappel rope, but don't think that would be good for your application.)

Old lady H wrote:

Hey, I host people here, on our local stuff. My tiniest gear was very gratefully placed by a very good climber....when they realized it is somewhat old school bolting here. Fall, you may deck. Between bolt 2 and 3, sometimes even higher. Cheat off to the side, even on top rope, you are looking at slamming into the dihedral when you pendulum back. You darn well better have an idea what your falls will be like.

Falling intentionally on gear isn't what I meant, but fully weighting the line is pretty important, for learning what it might have done, in a fall. Frank gave a totally simple answer to that.

All, this information is great! I always assume many more read these things, and sometimes that even prompts me to ask questions, on behalf of others who are even more noob than I.

Last? Boy, was I ever surprised, and touched, yesterday. This, awaited me when I got home. It was a tough day in a hard week, in a difficult stretch of time. Whoever you are....thank you.

Best, Helen

Who'd of thought?  MP restoring my faith in humanity.

Serious karma points for the soul that did this for OLH.

Seilschaft is real.

Buck Rogers wrote:
Seilschaft is real.

Hey, can I get a translation? I know I have a German last name, but sadly I don't speak the language. It literally translates to rope team, right? Are the conotations more like brotherhood of the rope? Thanks!

Ryan Pfleger wrote:

Hey, can I get a translation? I know I have a German last name, but sadly I don't speak the language. It literally translates to rope team, right? Are the conotations more like brotherhood of the rope? Thanks!

My German is awful (even though I live here!) but I first heard this from Geoff Tabin.  He first heard it from Heinrich Harrer whom he met in a climbing hut in the Alps in the 1980's one random night. Geoff asked him what the best thing about climbing over his lifetime had been and Harrer immediately said "Seilschaft".  

The literal translation is "rope team" but you are most certainly correct that it means way more than that in Austria and Germany amongst climbers.  It truly means "The Brotherhood of the Rope" and a lot like the brotherhood formed in combat or any demanding, intensely emotional experiences, that is what they are referring to when they use it.   

Practice placing lots of gear at the base of a crag. Have an experienced trad climbed "grade" your placements. Keep doing this until the experienced person tells you you are ready to safely place gear. Then just get on lead on something super easy with good pro. The only reason to mock lead is if you don't have good placement opportunities at ground level, and need higher up areas to practice placements. But if you have a good ground level area, you can place a lot more gear faster, and get more feedback faster.

Old lady H wrote:

With respect back at ya....I can't take even the approaches for granted, not with arthritis in both knees. Even a dinky, short, boulder fall could cost me my mobility, not just an "oops" for part of a season. It is always possible for one or both knees to "lock up" or buckle. It's not happened while actually climbing....yet. I've had both happen going up and down the trail, however. That's part of the price of being...no longer young.

If I wait until I am "safe" on any given climb, we are back to knitting. Everything local is above my grade, if it means assuming I will never fall. My knees guarantee that as a possibility.

So? What to do?

Climb anyway. Accept that I have challenges. Know that there are risks.

Just like every other climber who is no longer a brash noob and has acquired some sense, lol!

I boulder...with a very conscientious partner, and a plan to get off the sucker before I ever start up it.

I have climbed ice...with a full team assist, and on top rope. I love it, by the way.

I have been leading, sport, including onsights, for a few years...but not often, and very picky what I will try.

I fall while climbing. Sometimes, many, many times, if I am "stuck" at a particular point. Including on lead. No, I will not treat gear as I would bolts. No "sprad"!

I lower. I climb the route next door, on top rope. I only climb the bottom two thirds, knowing there's a big bulge up top. I down climb. I cheat.

I chase learning, and keep after it.

And have fun!

Unlike many, you see, I can't just assume I can climb something. I have to look at every single climb, and assess, every time. I've down climbed on lead, and same on boulders. I stick clip, and will have no shame "cheating" on routes. Part of why I really need to learn gear is to help bring that grade back down to "doable", at 4'11", not very bendy, and still building skills and strength (the last amazes me!).

So thank you so much, I don't disagree with you at all. How your advice is applied, however? Maybe not what you would expect. :-)

Best, Helen

To me it sounds like mock aiding will help you immensely. 

It gives you an idea of how slow you are at placing gear and you weight every piece. This will help with the French free mentioned by Mr Rice above. Aid is not a bad word.

Buck Rogers, thanks again for the translation. Sorry for the quick thread hijack, Helen! The great thing about aiding, is that in the basalt there any cam that is solid under bounce testing and body weight should hold a fall as well! In theory if a cam holds body weight it will also hold a fall unless the rock fails, and that basalt is pretty strong even if it lacks friction at times.

Curt Haire wrote: Helen -
over the past 50 years, I have had great success with introducing noobies to leading trad by having them AID their first few trad leads.  find a straightforward crack, and with a patient competent belayer, start up it with a pair of aiders.  by the time you get high enough to fall more than about a foot or two back to the ground, you'll have two or three tested pieces already clipped.  by the time you get high enough for a fall to be truly dangerous, you'll be protected by a half-dozen or more well-tested placements.  don't worry about "top-stepping" or long reaches. the more placements you make and stand on, the better you're protected and the faster you learn.  if you do happen to fail a piece, the placement that catches you will likely be no more than a couple of feet below the one that popped.  by the end of two or three pitches of this kind of practice, you'll have placed and tested more gear than most new leaders do in their first couple of seasons, and you'll be starting to feel the confidence to trust your placements to protect your free climbs.
-Haireball
btw -- I grew up in Idaho Falls, still have family there & in Boise area, so travel that area at least a couple times a year.  I'll let you know next time I'll be in the area, and maybe we can climb something...

Curt, mind if we dig into this a bit further? I could have sworn I commented on a thread not too long ago about how to go about aiding a trad pitch to learn to ID good placements, but alas, after 30 minutes of MtnProj Google-fu, I can't find it.

My understanding is that aiding a trad pitch is fine because if you slip, you've already tested the gear below you, and if you sew it up, you aren't falling really far. The other thing I remember reading is instead of using ladders, to just use a few slings. I'd rather not buy something I don't plan to use for the long term, so slings seem preferable. I can't remember what that other thread described, but I believe it was along the lines of: place a piece, clip a sling, stand in sling, place a piece, grab previous sling and clip it to new piece, stand, etc etc. Essentially french-freeing up. Do I have that correct? Seems like the toughest part is reaching down to "back clean" the previous sling... Am I missing something?

You don't typically stand in slings when performing French free 

Chris: aid is awesome for practicing trad placements! I think the ideal route to do aid practice would be a continuous crack on a slightly overhanging wall, because your falls will be clean.  The problem with that is that standing in aiders (or makeshift aiders with slings) is really tricky on overhanging terrain if you've never done it before.

A pair of adjustable daisy chains like the petzl quick adjust would be good because you can reach up, hook in direct to a piece, yard yourself up tight to the piece, then repeat.  You can supplement this with some slings to push on with your feet to help position yourself while reaching for your next placement.

This isn't the most efficient way to aid climb, but our goal here is to practice a bunch of placements, not moving swiftly up a big wall, so inefficient methods are fine.