New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #5

Dallas R wrote:
OK, here's my newb question of the day, "double set of cams", is that a duplicate set of cams like C4's .75 to #4, having two of each, or would our set of X4' and set of C4' be a double set?

Double set means duplicates of ranges. So, you could have doubles of .3-#3 BD cams. Or you could have two different sets (ie. Metolius and BD) but covering the same ranges. Given that X4s top out at .75 they can't double with the larger sizes of C4s. Nor can C4s double with the .1 and .2 X4s.

I used to have a Frankenrack of a bunch of different types. Now I've settled down to Totems in the small-medium sizes and BD C4s in the large sizes. What I lose in options I more than make up for in not suffering brain freeze and confusion trying to decide between 3 different possible cams...

To be clear that means 2x every Totem size up to purple. Then 2x BD c4s above that. I actually own more C4s in case I want 3 red or yellow camalots for some reason, but usually don't carry more than 2.

Dallas, "doubles" would be two cams per size range. Any make or model.

I figured out that a lot of climbs take and/or will gobble #3s, oddly enough #4s being on the edge of OW seem to really come in handy for building anchors as well.

On scout trips I'll need to have 4 or 5 top rope anchors built simultaneously so the extra 3s and 4s make it a breeze.

So we have an "adequate" single rack.  And the reality is we don't climb hard enough to need much more.  We are still growing as climbers but at a very slow pace. Most people reach our level in a year or two. We will die before we could get even close to Jeffreys, Richs, Seniors, Johns, Erika's, Wendy's etc. etc. etc. of climbing skills and abilities.  So in the mean time we have our fun by climbing our 5.5-5.7 routes. Are we real climbers?  Here's the crux; In my minds eye yes we are, not because of our abilities and accomplishments, but because of our heart and attitude.  Goal for this summer is to be able to claim to lead 5.7 and follow 5.9.  WooHooo! Wait a minute, you all did that years ago. I don't care, I just love being outdoors and engaging my mind and body. 

There are "people who climb" and there are "climbers", Dallas you and Barb are climbers......

"It takes one to know one" as they say...... ;)

I don’t know why everyone is so stuck on numbers you can climb  whatever you want.

Dallas R wrote:Goal for this summer is to be able to claim to lead 5.7 and follow 5.9.

Dallas, It's also my goal to be able to onsight lead 5.7 (in my area, Whitehorse/Cathedral and vicinity). I haven't really thought about a "follow" goal. Do you have a plan to achieve your goal? I was given a plan by an instructor ("redpoint pyramid") that I'm going to try to follow once the season gets going. But the #1 goal is to not get injured, since I seem to be prone to overuse injuries.

To the people who are saying "you can climb anything, ignore grades", I wonder if you have ever been injured trying to pull through something that is above your grade.

Dallas R wrote: Lori, you have had two offers to play with someone else's nuts, are you kidding me, jump on the opportunity, we aren't getting any younger here and there are no strings attached. Nike slogan: Just do it!

Ok, that was uncharacteristically  crass, apologies. The point is there is no harm in someone sending extra gear to you to practice with.  It's about learning.  

I am so trying to behave.  You all are making this impossible.      And I could double down on these comments in a hot second...

What a crew!  How great you all are.  

I obviously don't have anything to offer on the subject of climbing, gear etc. except to recommend chocolate at every outing.   But I do have thoughts on fitness at this age... and trying to avoid injuries. (dragons--regarding your post).  

Starting to climb at ... ahem... after 50, everything is already on that slippery decline slope.  I am so grateful for Ryan, and others, who continually pull me back.  I really don't know shit about this kind of fitness... they do.  This has been a much longer trajectory than I ever expected... as Dallas has also been saying.  

I was wondering what to do with my regular gym membership... I go 5 days a week, but with climbing, I don't have much to give at the gym.  But I understand now that climbing uses HARD a certain set of muscles... while others aren't used as much.  I've pulled my hamstring now, for no reason other than it's an opposing muscle and I didn't strengthen it. I whanked out a knee, finally had a PT look at it... gave me opposing muscle exercises, and knee feels great now.  I have lats now... but no chest muscles.  Climbing works biceps (for me), but my triceps went to hell.  (and thus, elbows are at risk, too)  So now at the gym I'm working all the OTHER muscles for some balance. Perhaps the focus for 'elders'   who climb is to make sure to work all the opposing muscle groups as one way to help avoid injury.  

It doesn't take a gym membership to keep this in mind... just conscious intent to make sure everything is strong.  (Carl... you figured this out, too, I recall.)
----------------

I had a thought on grades, too.  Wouldn't it be great if they would just turn the cards around, and hide the grades for a day?  For whatever reason, Ryan has taken me back to 'volume' climbs. (until after Josh).  So, yesterday we did volumes of 5.9 and 5.10's, and downclimbing, too.  I think looking at the grade, I misread the routes.  I didn't take the 5.9s seriously... and they were balancy and off center and I was surprised.  The 10s were a walk in the park.  Those grades psych me out.  I think it would be fun to just climb... not know.  There's a 10d with my name on it... and a few 11's.  I'd just rather not know the grade.  

Maybe it's a little much... but Ryan isn't counting grades, in terms of improvement.  He'd like me to work a 5.9 to death... work out any rough spots, find better rests, focus on footwork... find places to better hug the wall--build skills and technique right there.  I've really appreciated this.  

Lori Milas wrote:

I am so trying to behave.  You all are making this impossible.      And I could double down on these comments in a hot second...

What a crew!  How great you all are.  

I obviously don't have anything to offer on the subject of climbing, gear etc. except to recommend chocolate at every outing.   But I do have thoughts on fitness at this age... and trying to avoid injuries. (dragons--regarding your post).  

Starting to climb at ... ahem... after 50, everything is already on that slippery decline slope.  I am so grateful for Ryan, and others, who continually pull me back.  I really don't know shit about this kind of fitness... they do.  This has been a much longer trajectory than I ever expected... as Dallas has also been saying.  

I was wondering what to do with my regular gym membership... I go 5 days a week, but with climbing, I don't have much to give at the gym.  But I understand now that climbing uses HARD a certain set of muscles... while others aren't used as much.  I've pulled my hamstring now, for no reason other than it's an opposing muscle and I didn't strengthen it. I whanked out a knee, finally had a PT look at it... gave me opposing muscle exercises, and knee feels great now.  I have lats now... but no chest muscles.  Climbing works biceps (for me), but my triceps went to hell.  (and thus, elbows are at risk, too)  So now at the gym I'm working all the OTHER muscles for some balance. Perhaps the focus for 'elders'   who climb is to make sure to work all the opposing muscle groups as one way to help avoid injury.  

It doesn't take a gym membership to keep this in mind... just conscious intent to make sure everything is strong.  (Carl... you figured this out, too, I recall.)
----------------

I had a thought on grades, too.  Wouldn't it be great if they would just turn the cards around, and hide the grades for a day?  For whatever reason, Ryan has taken me back to 'volume' climbs. (until after Josh).  So, yesterday we did volumes of 5.9 and 5.10's, and downclimbing, too.  I think looking at the grade, I misread the routes.  I didn't take the 5.9s seriously... and they were balancy and off center and I was surprised.  The 10s were a walk in the park.  Those grades psych me out.  I think it would be fun to just climb... not know.  There's a 10d with my name on it... and a few 11's.  I'd just rather not know the grade.  

Maybe it's a little much... but Ryan isn't counting grades, in terms of improvement.  He'd like me to work a 5.9 to death... work out any rough spots, find better rests, focus on footwork... find places to better hug the wall--build skills and technique right there.  I've really appreciated this.  

Lori, same here. I've had all those "extra" exercises assigned as PT, and my friend has given me a range of stuff to do with weights or body weight. I don't do as much as I should, but, I do more than nothing, and far more than I ever used to. Which isn't saying much....

My gym added some rowing machines, the sort that you actually have a seat that slides, so everything does something. I use the handle one handed, and yes, cruise MP while rowing, or whatever. I works very gently, but quite differently from a bike, so I stay on it quite awhile.

Every single time I go more than ten minutes, someone my age, more or less, will comment "oh my, you've been on that a long time". There are empty machines around me, they aren't waiting for a turn. I feel both dumbfounded and smug. This is not a difficult machine....

So? We are not average, dear. That says a lot about aging in this country, expectations of older people, especially women, and is pretty sad, IMO. In that context, we are spectacular outliers, and our accomplisged, experienced compatriots on here, well, not even the same species as "average American". I don't think a single one of us takes these bodies as a given, we all know better. Which means? You, Lori, are helping others see a different possibility for their old bodies as well. 

Lori, re grades? Sometimes, just climb. Yes, it's good to do specific routes, but you can also make your own route decisions on the fly, even in the gym. That's an advantage to top roping.

Outside? You will need to be able to judge the route yourself, especially if you are leading, but even if you are just going to take a shot at it on top rope. You don't have to climb the whole thing, either. I've often done just the part that interests me, and hauled to the anchors to clean the route, with stuff here I'm tired of. That's another plus of top rope.

Eventually? You will find yourself outside, with no beta at all. That, is huge fun! We finally have a break in storms, so that's just what I'll be doing later today, at our giant boulder field. Cautiously checking out the landing, and how to get off the thing, but then, just going for it.

My last thing to say about grades? They are only wild approximations, inside and out. I'm still shut down on local 5.6s, yet I've onsighted 5.7-8s on lead (sport) elsewhere. I am "at least a VB, V0", according to my boulder guy, our first times out. That means I climb a harder "grade" on boulders than I do on rock. In theory. My single time on ice? Judged a WI2-3. Same thing.

Which means?

Have fun. Be safe. Be awesome.

Best, Helen

For what it's worth, I think that jumping in and buying a lot of gear needed for leading is a mistake. Just go and use other people's gear and learn how to place it that way. Following routes and removing it is an excellent way of getting experience as well.

Also, most people Carry way too much gear. It is rare that you will need extremely large size cams. It is better to concentrate on hand-sized gear and smaller. Having more than one set of Stoppers (but not necessarily the tiniest or largest)  makes much more sense than carrying multiples of certain cams.

In most cases, unless you were climbing pure cracks in the desert or Yosemite, it is possible to place Stoppers and other smaller pieces instead of using cams. People tend to not see the subtleties presented in cracks and see everything as a #2 or 3 cam placement.

Lighter, easier, less expensive, in many cases more secure and more versatile.

Excuse the voice to text mistakes.

dragons wrote: To the people who are saying "you can climb anything, ignore grades", I wonder if you have ever been injured trying to pull through something that is above your grade.

I actually read Jeff's post differently. I read it not to say that anyone can climb anything, that's obviously not the case. I read it to say that nobody needs to apologize for WHATEVER it is that they're climbing, whether it's 5.2 or 5.12.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. Some of my most fulfilling climbing days have been on things that are well below my upper ability levels but are just wonderful climbs in fantastic places with people I really enjoy. It doesn't get any better than that. Nobody should feel bad for "only" climbing 5.7 or whatever. It's awesome that you climb at all.

We all challenge ourselves exactly where we are at the time. 

My daughter age 2 and age 12. Both times in J-tree. 

Anyone that puts you down for climbing a 5.7 is trying to build themselves up for being just a 5.11 punter when the world standard is now 5.15+.

Trust me, and Jeff, Randy and Rich etc know this too, when you have seen truly world class climbers in action 99.999% of the rest of us are all just punters, all in the same boat of struggle when we come up against our modest physical limits.

Laugh it off.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote: Anyone that puts you down for climbing a 5.7 is trying to build themselves up for being just a 5.11 punter when the world standard is now 5.15+.

Trust me, and Jeff and Rich know this too, when you have seen truly world class climbers in action 99.999% of the rest of us are all just punters, all in the same boat of struggle when we come up against our modest physical limits.

Laugh it off.

God this is important.  Just keep sayin' it.  We really need to hear. 

I'm still trying to figure out who said 5.7 trad as a "limit" somehow makes you less of a climber.....

The consequences of failure is the same for 5.7 as is for 5.13, the deck is just as hard under both.......

To quote burchey...."I'll fight anybody on here that says that to my face"

Or something like that..... ;)

Grades don't mean doodly, if you're dead. Some very skilled people died climbing last year. Their "grade limit" meant nothing.

@ dragons, I've never injured myself "pushing grades" in 40 years. I know when to quit, and or bail. At the same time there's so many routes graded to the crux that are 5.6 5.7 climbing with one .10 move if you just say "I can't do .10" you'll miss some great stuff.
And the gym? Top rope, let go anytime safe environment means you shouldn't impose grade limits on yourself. As H says cheat as needed.
The pink route you were working, would you have gotten on it if the rating card was there from the start?

And lastly.....if you measure yourself based solely on the grade you climb, does one judge oneself by your personal best. Or what you climb currently..... ? Asking for a friend...... ;)

John Barritt wrote: 
Grades don't mean doodly, if you're dead. Some very skilled people died climbing last year. Their "grade limit" meant nothing.

John you continue to mangle the language.  I believe the technical term is 'diddly'.  This actually could go on a headstone.  

Helen... thanks for reminding us as you do.  Today two people have asked me 'what do you do' to stay health?  Do I take vitamins? (that was one question).  At the gym, doing dips (ugh) ... I'm getting those same questions.  Not that showing up at the gym is any great feat... it's just that I'm only seeing a few people there my own age.  In my female friends circle, the hardest workout is a stroll, on occasion... with a good nap afterwards.  It's just the usual norm, I guess.  It's the accepted trajectory for aging.  

To take the sting out, I'm trying to get used to calling myself an old person.  They actually took away my regular pass at J Tree and replaced it with a SENIOR card!  Removed it!  She said "You'll want this... it's a FREE lifetime pass!"  No.  I didn't.  

I'm proud of everyone here.  (not that that matters to anyone, I know).  It's not easy to get up and work out.  It's not easy to stay engaged with the world.  It takes some determination... and willingness to suffer a bit.  I promised that if I took up climbing, I would never complain about aches and pains.  I almost broke that promise a week ago when I went all out on a bouldering wall and put myself to bed for a solid 13 hours after.  So what.  We love what we do.  

This chart still has meaning for me...  the two choices we have about aging.  Slippery slope, disease, illness, chronic disorders and then death, or fairly vibrant health and fitness, and then death.  Absent 'shit happens' accidents or diseases, I think it's an accurate chart.  

Lori, that's doodly....is in short for doodly squat.... ;)

Lori, John, you're both right.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/doodly

John Barritt wrote: Lori, that's doodly....is in short for doodly squat.... ;)

Don't challenge me on this, John.  You may be the far better climber.  But you still have me calling my banged up hands "manky"--it's stuck, and there goes the entire English language.     I think this is a general Mid-Western problem. Maybe specifically an Oakie problem?  

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diddly-squat

EDIT: My and Wendy's post hit at the same time.  While I do not agree... I will concede to a draw.  Or an arm wrestle to determine the winner.  

65 next month.  

I cross train a lot now, cant keep my kid interested in one thing.  And seasons change.

Bought my first ski ticket (season, just now) in 6 years... to make my workouts easier.   Never ski lift bicycled before, looks like this year will be a first.  

'MO DOWN!  I guess.   I am slowing down quite a bit.  Nobody notices, I am too far out in front....

ski run climb crawl bike drink soke and have great sex at 65 .  Whats not to like?   Yall should be paying me as a lifecoach, you guys do worse every day.  You'd get your moneys worth with me.

I already outlived my lifetime climbing partner, and at his funeral, I was the only one left with color on my head.   ((I wore really stupid hats my whole life... now they know why.))    Seem to have outlasted almost all my partners.  Looking for a new partner to outlive now.    Thinking I am gonna canabalize some family relationships and steal away some grandkid, to ruin his life in support of my own filthy habits.  

No volenteers yet.  --- climbers are a kinda nervous bunch when you are talking about outliving them...

This thread is great. Just signed up and looking forward to following.

dragons wrote:

Dallas, It's also my goal to be able to onsight lead 5.7 (in my area, Whitehorse/Cathedral and vicinity). I haven't really thought about a "follow" goal. Do you have a plan to achieve your goal? I was given a plan by an instructor ("redpoint pyramid") that I'm going to try to follow once the season gets going. But the #1 goal is to not get injured, since I seem to be prone to overuse injuries.

To the people who are saying "you can climb anything, ignore grades", I wonder if you have ever been injured trying to pull through something that is above your grade.

I certainly have. However, I know what movements tend to cause me problems (reaching far to the side, then loading suddenly), and it usually happens when I am caught in the moment, and not thinking about getting injured. I am trying to remember to avoid routes with movement that aggravate my shoulder problems, and have come to the conclusion that I need to be faithful about rotator cuff exercises, no matter how boring they are. They seem to help a lot, and it is much more boring not climbing because i have another injury...otherwise, i am willing to try things above my grade (whatever that may be,) because I learn a lot that way. I just do it on toprope so I can stop if I think I am going to tweak something.