New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #5

Lori, I just searched the forums for "Joshua Tree standard rack" and found this thread (you should do the search and read them all).

I'd recommend waiting, don't buy now. It sounds like you haven't seconded anyone at all yet. You will want to spend time following a bunch of leaders before you get your own rack, and you will get to play with lots of different types of gear in this way. If you buy a new rack now, it could wind up described as "almost new" in the "for sale" section here in a couple of years. Just follow some people before you decide what to buy. And generous leaders will hand you the rack to lead an easy pitch if you feel you're ready.

I didn't buy until I decided I was ready to lead, having followed some leaders for about a season. Then I bought gear and took a leading lesson (I'd already read some books, and followed people on many routes, and took a multi-day anchor course at that point). I decided what to buy based on what the leaders were using.

Even so, I wound up finding it hard to do a lot of climbing because I didn't have a single, reliable partner. I only started leading a lot when I got one. Another important piece of "gear" that you need when climbing is a partner who can climb on your schedule. You should work on finding people to climb with, or you may find up that you're all dressed up with no place to go.

dragons wrote: Lori, I just searched the forums for "Joshua Tree standard rack" and found this thread (you should do the search and read them all).

I'd recommend waiting, don't buy now. It sounds like you haven't seconded anyone at all yet. You will want to spend time following a bunch of leaders before you get your own rack, and you will get to play with lots of different types of gear in this way. If you buy a new rack now, it could wind up described as "almost new" in the "for sale" section here in a couple of years. Just follow some people before you decide what to buy. And generous leaders will hand you the rack to lead an easy pitch if you feel you're ready.

I didn't buy until I decided I was ready to lead, having followed some leaders for about a season. Then I bought gear and took a leading lesson (I'd already read some books, and followed people on many routes, and took a multi-day anchor course at that point). I decided what to buy based on what the leaders were using.

Even so, I wound up finding it hard to do a lot of climbing because I didn't have a single, reliable partner. I only started leading a lot when I got one. Another important piece of "gear" that you need when climbing is a partner who can climb on your schedule. You should work on finding people to climb with, or you may find up that you're all dressed up with no place to go.

Hey dragons.  Thanks for this.  And to all else who have added their thoughts.
I've done quite a bit of following, and cleaning pro... but hadn't thought to buy any for myself, because as it's been pointed out, I would need to lead for that.

The partner thing is a whole different deal.  It's coming slowly.  Not only in Josh, which is harder because it's so far from my home, but certainly locally.  

Kinda cool how this is following sort of a predictable trajectory.  Ryan said "When you're here at the gym for a year or two, you'll start meeting people and finding partners."  That's certainly happening. It's so nice to be able to walk in and wave hi to people... recognize partners, feel good to go.  And in Josh... I'm getting to know some folks, so I'm never just standing around.  Locally here at the crags, there are small groups.  So... it's unfolding.    

The anchors class in Josh (in two weeks) will be the first two days of a 9-10 day climbing trip.  After that, there are days of climbing, and days of instruction on leading.  We'll see how it goes. It could be I'm just not feeling any of  it... or it could be I'm just suddenly totally ready.  I just see what's coming... can feel it sort of unfolding...

If I have gear, I'll use it.  Thinking about Josh... there's one store, Nomad's, which has everything, but certainly not cheap.  Whatever I do, it won't be going all in on some expensive rack of gear.

 

"there's one store, Nomad's, which has everything, but certainly not cheap."

The most useful piece of gear you should have is the right shoe for the right situation.  I don't know how many pairs of shoes you have (I have 4) but if you are wearing the same shoes in the gym as in Joshua Tree, you could use another pair.  And shoes should never be purchased online unless you are replacing a previous shoe with the exact same model and size.

Besides, I buy at least half of my gear from local gear shops because I think it's important to support the bricks and mortar stores.  In fact I'm heading to JT for the day today and plan to stop in Nomads to buy Todd's new book, rather than ordering online.

Speaking of Guidebooks, do you own your own for JT ?  

phylp wrote: "there's one store, Nomad's, which has everything, but certainly not cheap."

The most useful piece of gear you should have is the right shoe for the right situation.  I don't know how many pairs of shoes you have (I have 4) but if you are wearing the same shoes in the gym as in Joshua Tree, you could use another pair.  And shoes should never be purchased online unless you are replacing a previous shoe with the exact same model and size.

Besides, I buy at least half of my gear from local gear shops because I think it's important to support the bricks and mortar stores.  In fact I'm heading to JT for the day today and plan to stop in Nomads to buy Todd's new book, rather than ordering online.

Yay!  I love you for this!  And why did I have to figure this out on my own?  I spent several days suffering in Josh, slipping and sliding all over everything... I just knew I wasn't that bad of a slab climber. I walked into Nomads, showed them my shoes... which were in pretty good shape... but asked, is this the best I can do for this kind of granite?  

We spent a long time talking and comparing notes.  I left with a new pair of Scarpas, which changed EVERYTHING.  I hopped back on the same slabs, and moved right up with no problem.  What a lesson!

But those Scarpas were painful in cracks... really painful...so, I wound up also with a pair of TCPro's... which feel like slippers... and those work great on those kinds of climbs.

So now I have 4 pairs, too.  I've been wearing the Scarpas at the gym... and wonder if I've ruined them for outdoor climbing.  

Reminder to self to bring toothbrush next trip for soles of shoes.  

And thanks for the friendly reminder about brick and mortar.  Nomads is a place I'm really fond of, not only for what's in the store, but for WHO'S in the store.  They're just friendly, helpful people who always have time to talk.  I always try to support local merchants.

Will you report back in how your day went, and how the weather is?  

EDIT: I do have several guidebooks... and have been advised to stop reading them because I think i can climb everything.    Have fun today.  Maybe we'll meet up sometime? 

I don't agree with the quiver of shoes deal, I wear Moc's for everything, may

Jeff, you do have tough toes!  I find my Mocs way too painful for hand and fist cracks. And I find them more work than neccessary for steep to overhanging edges like at the Gorge. As a mediocre climber, I enjoy the advantage that the stiffness of something like the Kataki’s gives me.
Heading out the door...

Just goes to show you how backwards I am, I had a partner who wanted to learn rock climbing before we had a single piece of gear.  I am so fortunate.  I got the feeling that Lori's minimal gear was so she could sit around a bunch of rocks and place gear practicing and learning, observing how it fits and holds without actually climbing on it.  I did hundreds of placements before I actually weighted the gear. Then I built dozens of anchors 5 feet off the ground.  But then I live basically outdoors and have all the time in the world.

Guides, classes, books, mentors are all wonderful things, but in the end, your hand and mind must put the piece of metal in the rock over and over again until you have understanding and confidence.

95% of my trad climbing is with the same partner. He has an AWESOME rack, so I rarely use mine. Now it's old and not quite as used as it should be. On the other hand, the benefit of having a small rack (nuts and a few cams) is that you can practice anchors and placements on your own. There are a few other things that you should own in any case (which you may already have?), a few small locking biners, a nut tool, some kind of personal anchor system. A few shoulder length slings, maybe a web-o-lette can help with anchor building practice. You'll find many heated discussions about each of these things here on MP. I'd defer to the skills, opinions, and traditions in the area where you climb the most.

Dallas R wrote: Just goes to show you how backwards I am, I had a partner who wanted to learn rock climbing before we had a single piece of gear.  I am so fortunate.  I got the feeling that Lori's minimal gear was so she could sit around a bunch of rocks and place gear practicing and learning, observing how it fits and holds without actually climbing on it.  I did hundreds of placements before I actually weighted the gear. Then I built dozens of anchors 5 feet off the ground.  But then I live basically outdoors and have all the time in the world.

Guides, classes, books, mentors are all wonderful things, but in the end, your hand and mind must put the piece of metal in the rock over and over again until you have understanding and confidence.

Oh, Dallas.  YOU GOT MY NUMBER.     You are exactly right.  I just want to hang out and try stuff.  Pure play and learning. 

And I will add this... I may never get to climb with ya'll here... but you definitely want me along to tie knots!  I am the knot tier now.  Name the knot... it's DONE.      Last night I learned the Double-Loop Bowline on a Bight.  I was going to take a picture of this masterpiece but I'm pretty sure I'm wearing out my welcome here.  

I agree with those who suggest putting off buying gear.  That said, it is just about impossible to go wrong with BD cams 0.4 -- 3 (grey to blue).  The smaller and larger sizes are subject to a lot more discussion and it is more important to postpone decisions on them.  Even the purple and grey sizes have some concerns with the thinness of a portion of the cam---some folks prefer a solid single cam design for those sizes.  In the small sizes, I think the Totem cams, black, blue, and yellow, are distinctly superior to anything else on the market.  (Yellow overlaps with the grey C4).

I could be wrong about this, but I think there is confluence of opinion that a US "standard rack" is a double set of cams and a single set of stoppers.  (In the UK, it seems to be the reverse: a double set of stoppers and a single set of cams).  So if you want to get fancy with your cams, your second set can branch out from the BD stable---I seriously doubt you'll ever toss the BD cams mentioned above (unless perhaps something revolutionary rather than evolutionary comes along).

As for stoppers, here again opinions are all over the map and you'd be much better off using other peoples stuff to get a sense of what you like best.  In spite of all the love for DMM offsets, I wouldn't start out with them.  After running through a slew of brands, I like the Metolius ones the best, but that seems to be a minority opinion.

Dallas is absolutely right about placement practice.  His embrace of "ground school," as it is frequently called, is one of the best ways to get in good gear mileage without any risk.  You want to bounce test the ground placements to get a sense of how they behave under load (be careful to look away when actually bouncing to keep from getting hit in the face if the piece blows).

I have to head out now but later will edit this post with a good way to get in at least a little practice at home...

There was just a set of 5 slightly beaten up but totally usable BD cams posted and sold on the "for sale forum" for $125. If you want something to play around with and practice, that's a good idea. Start watching the forums and buy yourself a set of BD C4 camalots used. They hold value so even if you decide you never want to use them again after your march trip you can get your money back out of it by reselling here again.

If you really want to practice placing stoppers (nuts) I can mail you a set and you can hand them back to me in J-tree. 

I'll be in JTree starting March 21.  Starting to sound like I might be able to say hello to a couple of you.  Who thinks they might be around at that time?

Shoes are like bacon sandwiches, you can never have too many...... ;)

My standard (go anywhere) rack has;
4-#4s
6-#3s
Doubles on everything else down to .5
1 full set stoppers with doubles on larger sizes.

Rack for the route you're doing.

Dallas, "your hand and mind must put the piece of metal in the rock over and over again until you have understanding and confidence." I agree but I also think there's more to it. I feel like I learned a lot about good placements by following a couple of leaders who had been leading for decades. These guys had experience, and I could see how they set up anchors (both had differences from what I'd been taught). There was some overlap in the gear they used, but they also had different gear, and racked it differently. You can learn a lot on your own and from books, but you can learn so much more just from hanging out with a few old-timers.

I also took practice falls on my gear on mock lead to convince myself that my placements would hold. And when I took my lead instruction, I got a real eye-opener when the instructor grabbed a solid-looking cam in a slanting horizontal, and ripped it out without much effort, using a horizontal jerk. It might have held a vertical fall, but I never would have guessed that it could pull out so easily. This taught me to be really careful assessing the direction of pull on gear.

Victor - "He has an AWESOME rack, so I rarely use mine" - the same thing happened to me, although it's not so much because he has an awesome rack as because I'm less picky about what we use. Once I decided I wanted to start leading, I spent about $1K on all brand new gear - 60 m dry-treated rope, set of 10 draws (I bought sport draws and extra slings so that I could turn them into alpine draws), a full set of BD cams including the c3s and c4s up to the #3, a set of hexes, and a set of nuts.

I used my rack a bunch, but when I started climbing with my bf, we mostly wound up using his rack. He doesn't like hexes so we only carry a couple of those (I love them, but they do seem excessive, usually). On top of that, he had duplicates of most of my gear, except he has a bunch of Metolius cams because he prefers those to BD (go figure). We both also have a ton of hardware - oval biners and top-rope gear - that we almost never use anymore. I was advised to buy all these biners and such in my original course, but I wish I hadn't, it was probably a waste of money. I should have waited to see what I needed. If you're climbing with an established leader, you get the benefit of trying out all their stuff without having to make the investment before you decide what you really want to do.

Señor Arroz, do cams really not depreciate? Here's a set of 5 larger BD cams for $260 (25% off!) at Backcountry. $125 seems like a lot to me to buy gear with an unknown provenance. Personally, I'd never buy used, but I know people who have done that (and who actually use bootied gear, which I also don't). I would think the distaste for buying used gear would make hardware depreciate drastically. Once it leaves the store, you have no idea what happened to it. I think Jeff's position is kind of extreme (i.e. never loan out gear), but I wouldn't go so far as to buy used gear, and I don't see the point in buying used gear just to practice placements.

My feeling is unless you're going to need the gear to lead (because you're partnering with someone who doesn't have a rack), then there's no rush. Just take the course, play with the gear that's available, and then when you're really sure you want to lead, build up your rack slowly. If possible, find a leader who will be happy to have you swing leads using their rack. Generally, experienced leaders trust their own gear and prefer to use their own rack, so if you're going out with someone else, chances are you won't have much opportunity to use your own rack anyway.

Here’s all I can add to the conversation on climbing essentials. On every single climb, indoors or out, I bring  dark chocolate (and journal). It’s my “rack”.   

BTW, Jeff, can I borrow your gear? 

Señor Arroz wrote: There was just a set of 5 slightly beaten up but totally usable BD cams posted and sold on the "for sale forum" for $125. If you want something to play around with and practice, that's a good idea. Start watching the forums and buy yourself a set of BD C4 camalots used. They hold value so even if you decide you never want to use them again after your march trip you can get your money back out of it by reselling here again.

If you really want to practice placing stoppers (nuts) I can mail you a set and you can hand them back to me in J-tree. 

Senor, thank you so much. You are always thoughtful. I am now 100% overwhelmed by the whole discussion on gear and will just take a break.  The right gear will call to me, now or later. I have a feeling that The perfect rack will show up when I am ready.  Thank you!  

rgold wrote:...I could be wrong about this, but I think there is confluence of opinion that a US "standard rack" is a double set of cams and a single set of stoppers.  (In the UK, it seems to be the reverse: a double set of stoppers and a single set of cams)...

Yeah pretty much the reverse of that down here too, especially in places like the Grampians.  Many of the routes you can do with just stoppers.  I agree with all the statements about climbing on other peeps gear first, so you can evaluate what you like and what you don't.  I learnt to trad with a guy that has been climbing for 38 years and his stuff is literally vintage.  Most of it's quite heavy and he has some really old slings that are sort of 'fluffy' which I hate using.  Climbing on his rack let me realise how I wanted to build my rack. I won't bog down the convo talking about what's on my rack as it's pretty irrelevant to you guys up there...

Lori Milas wrote: Here’s all I can add to the conversation on climbing essentials. On every single climb, indoors or out, I bring  dark chocolate (and journal). It’s my “rack”.   

BTW, Jeff, can I borrow your gear?

I'm pretty sure Jeff was offering everyone here a set of stoppers, at least that's how I read it...

rgold wrote: I agree with those who suggest putting off buying gear. ...

We were climbing 3-4 years on our own before I invested in a real rack.  I bought the early pieces to learn with.

I could be wrong about this, but I think there is confluence of opinion that a US "standard rack" is a double set of cams and a single set of stoppers

OK, here's my newb question of the day, "double set of cams", is that a duplicate set of cams like C4's .75 to #4, having two of each, or would our set of X4' and set of C4' be a double set?

dragons wrote: Dallas, "your hand and mind must put the piece of metal in the rock over and over again until you have understanding and confidence." I agree but I also think there's more to it. I feel like I learned a lot about good placements by following a couple of leaders who had been leading for decades. These guys had experience, and I could see how they set up anchors (both had differences from what I'd been taught). 

Absolutely, because I didn't have role models to emulate, every trad anchor I built was to absolute standards in the text books, and beyond.  And then I backed that up with something because I wasn't sure.  Not timely, it took me over an hour to build an anchor.  So when I actually did get the good fortune to climb with experienced trad leaders I reached the anchors I am like OMG, this is so flimsy and sketchy.  But I did have the good sense to keep my opinions to myself because I was the newb.  Over time I learned that their anchors were good enough, so there is this range between crappy and over built that takes time to learn. But I still think step one is getting a piece of metal and placing  it.  

Lori, you have had two offers to play with someone else's nuts, are you kidding me, jump on the opportunity, we aren't getting any younger here and there are no strings attached. Nike slogan: Just do it!

Ok, that was uncharacteristically  crass, apologies. The point is there is no harm in someone sending extra gear to you to practice with.  It's about learning.