New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #5

Hey oldies, how you going?  You know what I like?  I like nights like last night when I go to the bouldering gym and the only peeps there apart from me are young newbies, like 18 to 25 year old guys but I'm the strongest guy in the gym and they say things like "show us how to do it" and "you make that look so easy" and "you climb so gracefully".    

dragons wrote: As promised, see below for video of my multiple pink route fails! Here's the original post. Thanks to everyone who weighed in.


If you have no patience to watch the full thing, here are links to the falls. There's a small improvement after each one.

Fall #1

Fall #2

Fall #3

After I climbed this route yesterday, a more experienced climber demonstrated how he climbs this. I took video, but unfortunately, he would not give me permission to post it on YouTube. I tried to mimic him on my 2nd and 3rd tries, and got further than on my first, but still fell off the rail. He's a foot taller than I am, so height is a factor.

If you go to 1:38, you will see that I'm completely stretched out in reaching up to the rail (hold #12 in this photo). When I look at the corresponding video for him, I see that he is not stretched out. He is leaning over to the left, and his hand is just below the bolt hole for the rail, a little higher than where my hand is. His right arm is bent. Here's how he proceeds:
1) He bumps his right hand up the rail. He gets this hand just beyond the bolt hole. He can do this because he's taller than me. Our feet are on the same footholds.
2) Then he bumps his right foot up to #8 foothold. (This is where my Fall #1 occurs, but I get higher in attempts #2 and #3.)
3) Then, his left hand releases the pacman undercling, and moves up to the top of hold #12. He tells me that #12 gets slightly more positive (convex) towards the top, which helps to hold it.
4) Now he has both hands on the rail. He moves his left foot off chip hold #6 and brings it to the top of pacman.
5) He rapidly brings his right foot up to hold #10. He's kind of crouching at this point. He is hanging out from the wall, slightly to the left.This is crucial: both his knees are bent and pointing to the right. In my last attempt, you'll see my left knee pointing out to the left; I'm trying to rockover left, but it doesn't work. I think it puts me in a poor position to step up (I'm trying but can't move up, and I fall). I didn't notice this when I was at the gym, so it's something to focus on next time.
6) He pulls the rail with his right hand and throws his left up onto the next higher rail, #13. Which apparently is even harder (more slopey).

Beyond that, I don't know, since he came down from there.

In comparison, Fall #1 occurs as I'm trying to move my right foot up to that #8 foothold. You'll see my hand slip right off. When he makes this move, he's laying back with his left side slightly angled toward the wall (but not completely; he's not turned 90° to the wall, he's still mostly face-in). I think that he's able to put more of his weight into this as a layback than I can, which helps him stay on.

Next time, if I can get up to where my last attempt failed, I will do my best to keep my left hip in to the wall, and see if I can make that next move stick.

One comment regarding autobelays: they're great when you don't have a partner, but they do make it hard to work a problem repeatedly.

PS the climbs in this corner are still not graded! Sigh.

Dude you looked real solid on that actually.  Can you get your left foot on Pac Man's bottom jaw instead of his top jaw?  Looks like the top jaw is pretty high and it looks like it also might offer less of a positive footer.  Failing that, can you get your right foot on the small footer out to the right?  

I guess another thing about autobelays is they don't shout up encouragement like " you GOT this" and "Sehr Stark! Ja! Ja!" and "Come on! come on! come on! YEAH!" When I belay people or sport them on boulders I'm always really active in encouraging them, possibly almost annoyingly so, and I tend to become German and/or French   

All this talk about Gym moves is making me wanna  jump out a window about 50 floors up lol 

Jeffrey Constine wrote: All this talk about Gym moves is making me wanna  jump out a window about 50 floors up lol 

$5 says there's a selfie involved..... ;)

rgold - "I'd say stepping on upper pacman is "wrong" no matter what your size" - I'll point this out to the dude who demoed how he does it   . Time will tell if Pacman's jaw (and possibly a toe-cam) will work.

Victor K - "Your may think you're not strong enough to do this move, but if done properly, you'll be getting a lot of the work done with your legs." - It would be nice if this is not a climb that I'm just not strong enough to do. "In general, the secret to slopers is to stay low with your body until you are ready to move". - Point taken.

Thanks all for the great feedback! With any luck I'll be able to move up to the next rail, next week   .

Carl Schneider wrote:

Dude you looked real solid on that actually.  Can you get your left foot on Pac Man's bottom jaw instead of his top jaw?  Looks like the top jaw is pretty high and it looks like it also might offer less of a positive footer.  Failing that, can you get your right foot on the small footer out to the right?

Stay tuned for the answer to these questions, next week, same time, same channel (unless the thread is closed by then).

I guess another thing about autobelays is they don't shout up encouragement like " you GOT this" and "Sehr Stark! Ja! Ja!" and "Come on! come on! come on! YEAH!" When I belay people or sport them on boulders I'm always really active in encouraging them, possibly almost annoyingly so, and I tend to become German and/or French   

Thankfully, the autobelays have not started talking to me yet   .

dragons wrote: rgold - "I'd say stepping on upper pacman is "wrong" no matter what your size" - I'll point this out to the dude who demoed how he does it   . Time will tell if Pacman's jaw (and possibly a toe-cam) will work.

Well, you said he's tall and that gives him leeway to get away with suboptimal technique.    Don't assume that because he did it, that's they best way for you to do it.

By the way, I find it extremely helpful to watch how other people climb for general guidance, but when it comes to imitating how they do particular moves, as often as not it doesn't work for me, even when the climber is of the same size and has the same reach.  I think individual bodies can be very different.  By all means listen to some beta if you are out of ideas, by all means observe how others cope with types of difficulties, let it all inform what you try, but keep your mind open to your own solutions and don't pay too much attention to us blabbering at you.

 Definitely don’t try and copy me and my moves on the Rock! Sorry I have no GYM footage for you it does not exist

rgold wrote:

I think individual bodies can be very different.  By all means listen to some beta if you are out of ideas, by all means observe how others cope with types of difficulties, let it all inform what you try, but keep your mind open to your own solutions and don't pay too much attention to us blabbering at you.

I really like this Rgold.  We newer climbers are finding our own style and strengths over time. I know I want to be an all round climber, but more and more lately Ryan has commented on my “style” on a climbing wall..,with an eye to working with it to an advantage.  I didn’t realize I had a style!  It also helps to watch climbers with a similar body type and way of movement. I’ve kept an eye on Margo Hayes because she’s long and delicate and I can see how she uses her body and strength. 

Jeffrey Constine wrote:  Definitely don’t try and copy me and my moves on the Rock! Sorry I have no GYM footage for you it does not exist

Yea but Jeffrey...could you put up a video of a recent climb?  If you don’t have one I’ll grab one next time I’m in town. It’s time to visit you at your rock.   

Video not that new but not that old. Gave a person that I did not know the 50-foot pole rig I have he did not tilt back at the end of the crux.

Another one for fun.

rgold wrote:

Well, you said he's tall and that gives him leeway to get away with suboptimal technique.    Don't assume that because he did it, that's they best way for you to do it.

By the way, I find it extremely helpful to watch how other people climb for general guidance, but when it comes to imitating how they do particular moves, as often as not it doesn't work for me, even when the climber is of the same size and has the same reach.  I think individual bodies can be very different.  By all means listen to some beta if you are out of ideas, by all means observe how others cope with types of difficulties, let it all inform what you try, but keep your mind open to your own solutions and don't pay too much attention to us blabbering at you.

One of my climbing mates came up with a term for a climbing style called 'The Carleque Way', which basically means grunting powerfully through the climb using the worst holds and being completely devoid of technique.  In fact he named a climb the same, see here https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/south-australia/adelaide/route/1291299630 . A bit odd, especially when you consider he also named another climb after me being 'Hot Carl' https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/grampians/hollow-mountain/route/849249924 as well as 'Mmm, Smooth Claves' https://www.thecrag.com/climbing/australia/south-australia/adelaide/route/1411714344

The climb The Carlesque Way requires what can only be termed a pullup half way up.  He's a way better climber than me but can't do the move.  In fact, many times he doesn't get how or even why I do certain moves, mainly it's because I either just LIKE the move (even if it's not efficient) or I just like the feeling of raw power.  I know that sounds very stupid but I do moves I like, even if it can be less efficient, just because it's fun...

Anyone else have climbs named after them??   

dragons wrote: Time will tell if Pacman's jaw (and possibly a toe-cam) will work.

I have a confession to make..my brain, well. It's wired oddly. I admit it. I read this three times before I could not picture a tricam in pacmans mouth.

OLH, Carl! :-)

rgold wrote:

Well, you said he's tall and that gives him leeway to get away with suboptimal technique.    Don't assume that because he did it, that's they best way for you to do it.

By the way, I find it extremely helpful to watch how other people climb for general guidance, but when it comes to imitating how they do particular moves, as often as not it doesn't work for me, even when the climber is of the same size and has the same reach.  I think individual bodies can be very different.  By all means listen to some beta if you are out of ideas, by all means observe how others cope with types of difficulties, let it all inform what you try, but keep your mind open to your own solutions and don't pay too much attention to us blabbering at you.

As a short person, I often think this or that climb is too hard merely because I am short, and either the setter or FA was just taller. The bolts are out of reach, I have to do a 10a move on a supposed 5.8, etc. Of course, I think, "Lynn Hill could do this, and she's short, but then again, she would have no problem pulling a 10a move, whereas my limit is 5.8".

The same can be said of strength: I'm not as strong as so many climbers, so I think "well, I'm just not strong enough to pull that move."

But people keep telling me many climbs are not about strength. Which I think is easy to say, when you've been climbing overhung stuff for many years    However, I'm trying to keep an open mind about it, and learn new techniques.

I think it was a year or two ago that I discovered Neil Gresham's "Outside Edge" Masterclass video.

I had already been climbing for 5-6 years at that point (admittedly, with lots of downtime due to injuries). When I first saw it, I had a hard time grokking what was going on. It took me a while before I had a feeling for how to apply it when on a wall, and I still probably don't use it enough. After I discovered that, I wondered what other techniques I might be missing which would help me climb better without any increase in strength or height(!) lol.

I don't get much opportunity to watch good climbers go up routes at my grade. Apparently, people don't want to watch an expert climber go up a 5.7 or 5.8. That's boring? I wish there were videos online of Lynn Hill, Adam Ondra, Alex Honnold etc climbing 5.6, 5.7, 5.8. Would love to see their movement on those.

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

Another one for fun.

Thank you, Jeffrey.  Beautiful.   

Taking a moment to reflect this morning.  I've felt a change this winter, and haven't known what it is.  Then I found myself listening to an old Cat Stevens song, Sitting, and realized that this song has accompanied me through 45 years of my life.  It spoke to me when I was leaving home.  When my son died... this song cried out "oh I'm on my way...".  And now, in this new phase... "I feel the power growing in my hair."  

Perhaps climbers make a transition from wanting to climb, to climbing.(?)  Something set free in me in January, and now I know I'm on my way.  I hear it in the voices of so many veteran climbers here... that thing that we are not supposed to call 'tribe', but how we recognize one another as both solitary travelers on rock, and friends who seek one another.  "Sitting on my own, not by myself
Everybody's here with me
I don't need to touch your face to know
And I don't need to use my eyes to see "

.... And if I make it to the waterside, I'll be sure to write you a note, or something.   

dragons wroteBut people keep telling me many climbs are not about strength. Which I think is easy to say, when you've been climbing overhung stuff for many years    However, I'm trying to keep an open mind about it, and learn new techniques.

At least some of this is BS.  You have to have a certain level of strength for each grade, and if you don't have it, no amount of compensatory technique is going to get you up.   This is not to say that ineffective technique will not increase the difficulty substantially, as the Gresham outside-edge videos demonstrate.  

Somewhat paradoxically, you need a certain amount of strength to exercise good technique, which is why technique often deteriorates as strength ebbs.  Its a matter of the rich getting richer: strength makes the decisions and motions of technique possible, technique reduces strength requirements and so conserves energy.

But strength is perhaps too broad a term.  There is ample evidence that, say, upper-body pullup strength is far from critical for high-level sport climbing (it is a little more necessary for trad).  So if you feel your arms aren't strong enough, there is very likely to be a technical solution unless the grade is very high.  Two other types of strength are finger strength and hand endurance, and these are much more essential.  I've never encountered a good climber who didn't have both these types of strengths.  Finger strength is of course essential for hard routes and bouldering, but beginning much lower in the grade scale, hand endurance becomes essential.  The profusion of hangboard and campus board workouts make it beyond obvious that the two omponents of hand strength matter.

We mentioned watching other climbers for clues about how to do moves.  I think it important to choose who to watch.  The only thing you can learn from someone who muscles through moves is how to muscle through moves---if you have the strength to imitate that ineffective and ultimately limiting style.  In brief, you can only learn bad habits from that type of success.  Look for people who seem to be managing by getting good body position, maintaining control, moving smoothly---it is hard to describe, but to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, you know it when you see it.  But what you can't discern is their hand strength and endurance, and to the extent that those qualities enable their technique, you might really not be strong enough.

So....whadya gonna do about that?

(Do not try this at home...)

rgold wrote:

We mentioned watching other climbers for clues about how to do moves.  I think it important to choose who to watch.  The only thing you can learn from someone who muscles through moves is how to muscle through moves---if you have the strength to imitate that ineffective and ultimately limiting style.  In brief, you can only learn bad habits from that type of success.  Look for people who seem to be managing by getting good body position, maintaining control, moving smoothly---it is hard to describe, but to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, you know it when you see it.  But what you can't discern is their hand strength and endurance, and to the extent that those qualities enable their technique, you might really not be strong enough.

It is impossible to overstate the truth of this.

As I have aged and incurred some minor physical disabilities, I have found that it is still possible to climb difficult routes by relying more on "tricks" and "cheating" [technique developed over many decades]. Gyms are a great training ground to develop strength and power and certain techniques, but it still requires time on various types of rock to hone your technique.

I have found out this to be true. As I grow older my strength has declined substantially, but my bag of tricks has grown much larger. And I use all of those tricks when I climb.