Definition of a TRAD climb? does anything count?

that guy named seb wrote:

Yes they change the experience, no chance of both of you being ripped off the side of a cliff because your partner slipped a few meters above the anchor, no rapping with out leaving gear that can get nice and corroded. Bolted belays should be standard pretty much everywhere. Though please tell me about the loss of the experience of plugging some cams into bomber cracks from a stance, truly this is what we go climbing for. 

Whatever you say, chief. 

that guy named seb wrote:

Bolted belays should be standard pretty much everywhere.

uh, no.  How about, bolted belays should only be placed when no gear anchor options are available or as rappel anchors on climbs that you can't walk off.

that guy named seb wrote:

Yes they change the experience, no chance of both of you being ripped off the side of a cliff because your partner slipped a few meters above the anchor, no rapping with out leaving gear that can get nice and corroded. Bolted belays should be standard pretty much everywhere. Though please tell me about the loss of the experience of plugging some cams into bomber cracks from a stance, truly this is what we go climbing for. 

You clearly have never climbed a route that has no retreat and don't understand how that completely changes the climb if at any point you can just rappel. Why not just put a ladder between anchors too via ferrata everything.

If you want the guarantee of safety, go sport climbing.

ViperScale . wrote:

You clearly have never climbed a route that has no retreat and don't understand how that completely changes the climb if at any point you can just rappel.

Are you saying that if there are no bolted anchors you can't rappel the route? How did you belay on the way up?

Some other thoughts regarding your ask:

1) Why not just ball up and go train until you can climb harder than the grade consistently.  Then you wouldn't need gear or a rope to free it. Training is dedication and is an asking of the climber to rise to the level of the climb as opposed to taking the climb down to the level of the climber.

2) There are plenty of routes to go climb, why do you need to take this route and make it into something that fits your needs.

3) The FA got there before anyone else and used tactics besides drilling the rock to leave it as is and climb it. If someone wants to climb something in a different style then get there first.

4) Other options I have used in the past if the FA did not want to allow the addition of fixed gear have included top roping the route, dropping a static line anchored at the top of the route with loops tied at regular intervals, I clipped those loops as if they were bolts. You get the same basic leading experience with no damage to the rock. A bit more effort but again, respecting the FA is a simple, tried and tested tradition with no better alternative.

TRAD routes are those ascended on gear that is removable and not anchors meant to be permanent such as bolts, pitons are included but of course damage the rock. Clean TRAD is climbing using  gear that is removable and does no or imperceptible damage to the rock.  

Marc801 C wrote: Are you saying that if there are no bolted anchors you can't rappel the route? How did you belay on the way up?

A) It would make it costly to rappel and leave 5 anchors of bail gear. 

B) It could be difficult finding 5 anchors to bail that all take different types of gear so you don't run out of the sizes you need.

C) Rappel isn't always possible on some routes that traverse. You could down climb it in reverse since some routes you can't even with trad anchors rappel straight down.

D) Since you can't straight rappel all routes straight down in perfect conditions getting down if someone gets hurt / storms come up make retreat near impossible / dangerous.D

Topher Dabrowski wrote: TRAD routes are those ascended on gear that is removable and not anchors meant to be permanent such as bolts, pitons are included but of course damage the rock.

This is quite incorrect. You're  ignoring all those routes done in the 50's* - 80's (IE: before there was something called "sport climbing" and before "climbing" had to be changed to "trad climbing" to make the distinction) that had bolts placed by the FA, usually on lead from stances. All those routes are still considered trad.
There were 125 bolts placed on the Nose during its FA. The Salathe had 13.

Hint: it's not about the kind of gear, it's about how it was placed and how the route was ascended.
Refer (ie: search) to the dozens of threads over the years where this has been repeatedly thrashed out.
*: actually before that. Recall the 1939 FA of Shiprock, where a protection bolt was placed (and they had 3 more bolts with them). There were other FAs as well where bolts were used for protection long before the 50's.

Marc801 C wrote: You're  ignoring all those routes done in the 50's - 80's (IE: before there was something called "sport climbing" and before "climbing" had to be changed to "trad climbing" to make the distinction) that had bolts placed by the FA, usually on lead from stances. All those routes are still considered trad.

Hint: it's not about the kind of gear, it's about how it was placed and how the route was ascended.
Refer (ie: search) to the dozens of threads over the years where this has been repeatedly thrashed out.

I respectfully disagree, those are defined as mixed lines.  It is important to make a distinction because there is one.

Sport climbing is clipping all bolts.  If the line is all bolts and was put up in the 50-80's it makes no difference.  Those bolts could be originals (and relatively unsafe) or replaced by the ASCA and then they are modern and the route is a sport route not a trad line.

Topher Dabrowski wrote: I respectfully disagree, those are defined as mixed lines.

No, those are trad routes with some bolts for pro.

Sport climbing is clipping all bolts.  If the line is all bolts and was put up in the 50-80's it makes no difference.  Those bolts could be replaced by the ASCA and then they are modern and the route is a sport route not a trad line.

Please do some of the older routes on GPA or in the Meadows - you know, the 5.10's with 4 bolts in 150' and try to convince anyone they are sport routes.

Sport routes are generally all bolts for pro, but not all routes with only bolts for pro are sport routes.

Here's a starting point: ​https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/109403872/definition-debate-what-is-trad-climbing​​​

Warrior wrote:

So, by definition, the Bachar Yerian is a sport route! 

Why would you say that?  You can place gear on that route, it would be a mixed line.

ViperScale . wrote:

You clearly have never climbed a route that has no retreat and don't understand how that completely changes the climb if at any point you can just rappel. Why not just put a ladder between anchors too via ferrata everything.

Try sea cliffs, you can't even rappel because below you is the ocean.

Retreat is always an option it just means leaving gear, in fact leaving gear is often the only means for descent anywhere in the greater ranges, what if they put in bolts on the way down while abseiling on does that change the route? What about fixed piton belays, these are the essence of trad in my area and there's fixed pitons all over the place.

Just to add a beautiful exception this debate, Ondra bolted a 9a ground up because the ethics of the area said no rap bolting, is this trad?

Jaren Watson wrote:

How is this an exception?

Well I say exception because I would think there's no way you could call it trad, I assume I'm going to be proven wrong on this assumption. 

that guy named seb wrote:

Try sea cliffs, you can't even rappel because below you is the ocean.

Retreat is always an option it just means leaving gear, in fact leaving gear is often the only means for descent anywhere in the greater ranges, what if they put in bolts on the way down while abseiling on does that change the route? What about fixed piton belays, these are the essence of trad in my area and there's fixed pitons all over the place.

Why can't you rappel down a sea cliff? I have done it before. Some routes have traverse pitches that are kinda 1 way and if you had to rappel down due to an emergency it isn't possible. You would have to down climb and if you got hurt you can't really down climb without alot of work. This risk is 100% negated if you can just rappel down any pitch of the climb.

If you are going to bolt something, find something new. Is that too much to ask?

that guy named seb wrote: Just to add a beautiful exception this debate, Ondra bolted a 9a ground up because the ethics of the area said no rap bolting, is this trad?

Yes, if he did so on lead.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yes, if he did so on lead.

Rubbish.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yes, if he did so on lead.

This is where it gets murky and where there's some overlap. Sport climbing also means the climb is protected well enough that risk from falls is relatively minimal, allowing the climber to focus on difficulty....leaving the quandary of fixed pro vs removable for keyboard warriors to thrash out. This is also why the people looking for absolute definitions, like many of the newer climbers in this thread who think bolts = sport, perpetually disappointed.

I guess perhaps one should point out that MP does explicitly organize routes as sport = bolts/ trad = not bolts, so it's pretty logical for people to use that definition here, even if that is not the traditional definition.

I take it that no one wants to address the elephant in the thread that FAs don't own the rock unless they literally own the rock (private land). Every tradition evolves as it gets handed down from person to person, and a growing portion of the community doesn't necessarily think all traditions should be preserved as rgold would like. Climbing for recreation just isn't very old as a human activity, and there is no reason it should it be immune from the march of time. Certainly no human community has ever been able to preserve traditions with out change for that long without becoming marginalized or extinct.