Definition of a TRAD climb? does anything count?

For my personal definition, "trad" is a ground-up, onsight of a route that was originally put up in this style.  When I send a headpoint (whether as an FA or a repeat), I usually take care not to spray about it as any sort of "trad" climb.

In reality, though, plenty of classic, innovative gear protected climbs don't fit that idea of "trad" (Equinox, Vandals, Phoenix, Cobra Crack), because they involved hangdogging and projecting.  And most of us today would think that something put up as a hangdogged project could easily be more impressive than a "ground up" ascent that involved yoyo-ing in which climbers took turns lowering off their highpoints, and the FA might very well have TR-d 75% of the route through his friends' pre-placed gear.

does the FA really dictate all future climbs on a rock? do we need to go back and only use shity ropes and bad gear just cause it was done that way the first time and we need to honor that FA's 'trad' lead?    how much of that FA's tactics need to be followed? do we deal in absolutes? So you get 1 nut 10 feet off the ground and that's it? cause that's how it was done and just climb harder like the FA did ...

after saying all this I do sound like a gumby who can't climb well and is just complaining, but I'm also a gumby who wants to learn ... 

Pnelson wrote: For my personal definition, "trad" is a ground-up, onsight of a route that was originally put up in this style.  When I send a headpoint (whether as an FA or a repeat), I usually take care not to spray about it as any sort of "trad" climb.

In reality, though, plenty of classic, innovative gear protected climbs don't fit that idea of "trad" (Equinox, Vandals, Phoenix, Cobra Crack), because they involved hangdogging and projecting.  And most of us today would think that something put up as a hangdogged project could easily be more impressive than a "ground up" ascent that involved yoyo-ing in which climbers took turns lowering off their highpoints, and the FA might very well have TR-d 75% of the route through his friends' pre-placed gear.

Essentially the op is asking if headpointing is trad climbing, right Ska? My answer is unequivocally "yes". Anyone care to differ and if so, explain yourself?

Tradiban wrote:

Essentially the op is asking if headpointing is trad climbing, right Ska? My answer is unequivocally "yes". Anyone care to differ and if so, explain yourself?

That's definitely a part of my question yes, we hit tangents like all threads do, but it was the original question.

So Dawn Wall is sport climb?

Tradiban wrote:

Essentially the op is asking if headpointing is trad climbing, right Ska? My answer is unequivocally "yes". Anyone care to differ and if so, explain yourself?

Yes. The ascent on lead is a trad climb. It may not conform to traditional ethics in all areas, but the climb itself was done as a trad climb. 
Using a more rigid definition of trad would require all sorts of leaps of logic. If one free solos a route, but rehearsed the moves on rope prior to that ascent, does it count? Of course. 

rgold wrote: When people talk about what's "right" for some undefined "community" of climbers, 

Truer words have never been spoken.  The "community" is not a single mindset.  It is multiple layers of fully varied spectrums of styles, ethics, wants, desires, risk tolerances, skill sets, etc.  I would say at best any comment made about the "community" (other than we are all climbers) at best covers 45% of the people in the community.  The difference between bold and stupid, progressive and contrived, calculated risk versus a death wish, are all a matter of opinion and perspective.

In this case I agree that it was absurd and selfish to put up the route in this style.  No one is ever going to come back and "lead" this route with such crazy shenanigans.  It was selfish for a person to establish a route in this style knowing that it's a pretty universal ethic for someone else not to change to style of the FA of the climb.  However, I'd say its just as absurd for you to add bolts to the climb to make it so it can be lead.  The climb can already be top roped so its not like the climb is inaccessible and at 45' I wouldn't exactly call it a crime that it can't be lead.  If there truly is community consensus that bolts should be added then add them, but don't do it because you perceive it as needed.  Don't start the acceptance of modifying a route cause one or a few people think it should be.

On a side note, I commend you for posting this.  You had to have known that this could become a shit storm of a thread or that people would just come down on you hard.  However, while ethics is a messy subject it needs to be discussed.  Opposing opinions need to be heard.  In older times you couldn't start climbing much less climbing outside without mentors and a bit of a community.  However, now that everybody learns in the gym and can transition to outside with just a class and some sport draws that knowledge/tradition transfer chain is broken so this helps (once again in a messy way) mend the broken link.

climbing friend,

the trad it is what you would resort to at age passing of 60, when you may no longer pull it hard the stones and are physically unable to have sex, yet you still want to "feel alive" and try to quell your "existential angst" through pointless and selfish activity

baldclimber wrote:

Making popcorn.  Who wants some?

Me. I brought beer to share. 

Aleks Zebastian wrote: climbing friend,

the trad it is what you would resort to at age passing of 60, when you may no longer pull it hard the stones and are physically unable to have sex, yet you still want to "feel alive" and try to quell your "existential angst" through pointless and selfish activity

I thought that was aid.

Ska Ggs wrote: does the FA really dictate all future climbs on a rock? do we need to go back and only use shity ropes and bad gear just cause it was done that way the first time and we need to honor that FA's 'trad' lead?    how much of that FA's tactics need to be followed? do we deal in absolutes? So you get 1 nut 10 feet off the ground and that's it? cause that's how it was done and just climb harder like the FA did ...

after saying all this I do sound like a gumby who can't climb well and is just complaining, but I'm also a gumby who wants to learn ... 

In a sense, yes, the FA dictates how it's climbed in the future but only to a point. Advances in tech might allow that climb to done safer (smaller cams or nuts). Crossing the etihical line would be drilling bolts and permanently altering the rock face. Which might not seem like a big deal in 300ft of stone but in 45ft you are definitely.altering the aesthetic not to mention how the route climbs ( the experience).

Aleks Zebastian wrote: climbing friend,

the trad it is what you would resort to at age passing of 60, when you may no longer pull it hard the stones and are physically unable to have sex, yet you still want to "feel alive" and try to quell your "existential angst" through pointless and selfish activity

That's all you got? Here Aleks is hiding behind his neck-meat persona to trot out a tired old ageist argument and avoid engaging in any of the substantive issues.  It is supposed to be funny.  Haha, no doubt another faux broken-english retort is now on the way.

Tradiban wrote:

Why must the climb be led if it can be top roped? Retrobolting for lead is pure ego.

Or if you want to lead it hang a top rope with loops every few feet and lead away.

Ken Tubbs wrote:

Or if you want to lead it hang a top rope with loops every few feet and lead away.

you joke, but thats actually been one of the ways ive seen some of the routes done at the OPs crags

Ken Tubbs wrote:

Or if you want to lead it hang a top rope with loops every few feet and lead away.

Lol, I've never heard of that idea but it works! Hear that sportos!? 

I think this meathod needs a name.

Tradiban wrote:

Essentially the op is asking if headpointing is trad climbing, right Ska? My answer is unequivocally "yes". Anyone care to differ and if so, explain yourself?

Some would say "yes," others would say "no," I'd say "kind of."  But what kind of headpoint are we talking about? Rapping a blank face to see if there is gear and holds right before busting into a lead attempt?  Pretty damn trad. Toproping a line two dozen times complete with mock leads, before leading it?  Not too trad, but still badass in kind of a gritstone way.  Toprope projecting/headpointing a g-rated crack?  In my mind pretty lame.  And just because you can headpoint a 12d doesn't necessarily mean that you could even consistently onsight an 11+ crack.

Regardless of definitions, I like headpointing because it can force me to go into a trad headspace while pulling sport-like moves that may be truly at my sport limit.  You don't find that in trad climbs too often.

Tradiban wrote:

Lol, I've never heard of that idea but it works! Hear that sportos!? 

I think this meathod needs a name.

Agree.  Genius Ken Tubbs!

Ken Tubbs wrote:

Or if you want to lead it hang a top rope with loops every few feet and lead away.

I thought it was already established that hanging a chain was the way to go for this...

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/113449466/pull-a-story-about-lead-climbing

And here's the definitive last word.  

Pnelson wrote:

Some would say "yes," others would say "no," I'd say "kind of."  But what kind of headpoint are we talking about? Rapping a blank face to see if there is gear and holds right before busting into a lead attempt?  Pretty damn trad. Toproping a line two dozen times complete with mock leads, before leading it?  Not too trad, but still badass in kind of a gritstone way.  Toprope projecting/headpointing a g-rated crack?  In my mind pretty lame.  And just because you can headpoint a 12d doesn't necessarily mean that you could even consistently onsight an 11+ crack.

Regardless of definitions, I like headpointing because it can force me to go into a trad headspace while pulling sport-like moves that may be truly at my sport limit.  You don't find that in trad climbs too often.

We are talking about TRing to death but like I said earlier, lame but necessary.

A famous Devils Lake climber once said "Put your lead hat on because the gear is often tricky and the ground is always close".