Bolts don't change the experience

Christian . wrote: Who cares?

A  lot of us.

None of us own the rock.

Yet we're all stewards of our rock resources.

  Clip the bolts or don't. 

One of the biggest myths in climbing.

Tradiban wrote:

Its a free country to bolt in but any bolts i dont like, the.bolter will be shamed with no mercy. If they can take the heat they can stay in the kitchen.

Namaste bitches.

Shame or be shamed I say. There are baskets and baskets of deplorables out there.

Create a queryable but not quite public database of first ascent climbs? the curator would require location, name, basic description of route and or picture, style of ascent and any notes regarding any hardware whether by FA or possible additions in the future.

This way the style and will of the FA is recorded. Any additional first ascent claims can be vetted and the parties connected for discussion if needed.

txclimber wrote: While I don't necessarily disagree with most of what's been said here, where DO you draw the line.  Devil's advocate scenario:

Someone FA's a beautiful line sans rope, tops out and walks off then names it Joe's Solo Route.  Joe brags about how badass his route is and it's found to be true.  Is it your stance that Joe's Solo Route can NEVER be bolted without Joe's permission?  It would make a fine line, probably the best at the crag, but bolting it would change the experience greatly.   Hell, for that mater even adding rap bolts at the top, to prevent the heinous cactus filled walk-off would "change the experience", is that verboten too?

I think a better corollary might be "If it's originally put up free solo, is it OK to later go do it trad with gear?"  

Was any clarification ever given: Was the whole route retro-bolted, or just the last 12 feet? And how many bolts do you need for a 12 ft section?

Brandon.Phillips wrote: Was any clarification ever given: Was the whole route retro-bolted, or just the last 12 feet? And how many bolts do you need for a 12 ft section?

Yes. Back a page or three someone (the OP?) said it was the entire route. 

Don’t bolt where gear can be placed! It’s morally wrong

Another decade or two and we’ll be like remember before the autobelays went in?

Daniel Melnyk wrote: Don’t bolt where gear can be placed! It’s morally wrong

So routes that go up the side of a cliff and stop at an unclimbable section of wall can't have bolts at the end because you can place gear anchors to rappel off of?

ViperScale . wrote:

So routes that go up the side of a cliff and stop at an unclimbable section of wall can't have bolts at the end because you can place gear anchors to rappel off of?

Do we have to nitpick *everything* to death?

ViperScale . wrote:

So routes that go up the side of a cliff and stop at an unclimbable section of wall can't have bolts at the end because you can place gear anchors to rappel off of?

That’s not what I said at all and is a completely stupid statement 

Chop the route and the retrobolters climbing rope

Rgold and many others have convinced me that bolts are for complete f'n loohoohoosers. I will forever either walk off or rap off trees. Plus sport climbing makes my butt look fat.

did we ever find out what crag this was? If its at T-wall or sunset then I'm disappointed that nobody has chopped the bolts yet. I'll be back in chatty this winter you can be damn sure I'll chop those bolts if nobody has gotten to them yet. 

Yes, let's encourage a war even if we are WAY short on info. We need more wars in the community right?

Mobes Mobesely wrote: Yes, let's encourage a war even if we are WAY short on info. We need more wars in the community right?

No War.  Just reclaiming traditional territory.  

It is interesting that it is always the removers that are accused of starting bolt wars.  In cases such as the one described here, in which an already-existing trad climb is retrobolted top to bottom, the bolt war was most definitively started by the bolter.  The removers aren't starting something any more than people who clean up graffitti are starting something---they are repairing vandalism.

The preposterous claim that "bolts don't change the experience" can only be made by someone who has absolutely no understanding of trad climbing and so no clue about what experience is or is not being changed. In fact, the idea that bolts don't change the experience completely disqualifies anyone with a drill from messing with any trad climb.  If they don't understand what they are dealing with, they have no business making alterations to it.

Bolt wars are indeed awful.  Thinking, or getting a clue, before drilling would be a good first step towards diminishing the scourge.

The experience is absolutely, completely changed with the bolts there!  I've climbed routes by not clipping the bolts (Sour Mash & Dreams of Wild Turkeys in RR, Valley 5.8 in the Gorge) but the experience is not the same as when the option to clip does not exist at all (especially when gear placements are near).  There are plenty of bolted routes (and more all the time); let's leave some wild, runout, and primitive!  It makes us as climbers pull from our internal resources to find and use things we didn't even know were there. That's what climbing is about for me.

md3 wrote:

The community owns shared public resources.  Neither the first ascensionist nor the individual who wants to add or chop a bolt to/from an already established route have any right to determine what constitutes appropriate permanent modifications or alterations of a shared public resource.

Wishful nonsense.

Christian . wrote: Who cares?  None of us own the rock.  Remove the bolts or don't. 

Fixed that for you...