Groups take over

Jack Servedio wrote:

I've never climbed with more than two others in my life and deal with huge groups every time I go to Pilot and always saw them at DL when I lived in WI.

Not once did a group ever tell me no when I asked to lead or jump on their rope. Not a single time. Yes, big groups have more impact on the environment and can be loud and sometimes obnoxious, but you are on public land they have an absolute right to use.

If I want peace and quiet I get off my ass and make the long hike out to cooks and have an entire wall to myself.

You just seem especially angry. 

mediocre wrote:

You just seem especially angry. 

Amused, not angry. 99% of the problems people complain on here about could be solved by simply being reasonable and talking with other parties.

I dislike big parties an much as the next guy, and find myself defending this one because of how silly the situation is.

Jack Servedio wrote:

Amused, not angry. 99% of the problems people complain on here about could be solved by simply being reasonable and talking with other parties.

I dislike big parties an much as the next guy, and find myself defending this one because of how silly the situation is.

Sound more angry than amused to me.

mediocre wrote:

Sound more angry than amused to me.

If you are in NC and want to see how angry I am, come climb with me and have a beer. Though I'm afraid you'll be a bit disappointed with the anger level and likely climbing ability. Though if your name is apt, maybe not so much about the climbing.

Pnelson wrote:

Your sarcasm game sucks, dude.  You have all the subtlety of a Latin American soccer riot. 

I wasn't being sarcastic, just hinting that the photo clinic story would be more believable if there were actual photos.

the schmuck wrote:

Uhhhhh..,care to explain how the group was supposed to know that they wanted to climb these two specific routes if the OP did not ask?  Am I expected to query the intentions of every yahoo with a harness who walks by a route I may be hangdogging into 5.9 submission?

Yes.

When it looks like you're monopolizing a resource, you need to go out of your way to show that you want to share. A guide apologized to me yesterday for logjamming a rappel a little bit, and we had a brief but very pleasant conversation. Because they went out of their way to counteract the inconvenience.

Jack Servedio wrote:

So than what is the issue at hand here? You asked to climb, they let you.

End of story, no? Or are you suggesting that you shouldn't even have to ask? That groups should just be on the lookout for passers by with gear and offer up their route in order to alleviate the hassle of having to speak to another human being.

No, at that point they said the RRGCC told them to just take over

David Draper wrote: I appreciate everyone's input, I really do. A couple of things. The group leader and volunteer were very gracious and helpful to us, I hope that was clear in my post. I wish more were more like them. The only small but important thing, is that had I not asked to climb through, I don't believe he nor Lena Chita would have offered to let us climb, as I gave them both time to do so. Probably because of what the RRGCC had told him about "just take over the crag." To address amarius, no, not the shittiest routes, the actual only warmups and were 3 stars each, quite good really. Finally, on our way out that evening we noticed a RRGCC sign that mentioned the clinics. Our crag was not among them, but we also noticed that the sign explicitly mentioned "share the crag." That seems to be a contraction to what the RRGCC told the group leader, but I am glad he followed good etiquette in spite of this.
I believe this, when groups are at a cliff, they must follow a higher standard, be aware of noise, pack explosions, etc, and if people show up, proactively allow them to climb if those were the routes they were seeking. 

My memory is that you had asked to climb right away, as soon as we exchanged hellos and I mentioned that there was a clinic going on, so there wasn't really time for us to offer first, which we definitely would have, if you didn't ask first. I have volunteered for a variety of Rocktoberfest clinics for the past ~10 years, held by different instructors and at different crags. In the past years, sometimes people walked in, learned that the clinic was taking place, and decided to go elsewhere, even though we offered to let them climb. Sometimes they took us up on the offer. The attitude has always been "share the crag".

I think the sticking point is that you heard "just take over the crag" and that upset you. While in reality it was just a figure of speech on D's part, and he should have been more careful in how he put it. RRGCC didn't literally tell him to "take over" the crag. He was just told that he could use his discretion to pick whichever routes he wanted for the clinic, at this crag, based on the group's abilities. If I remember correctly, he said it when you voiced your disapproval that the clinic was occupying the warmups, just meaning that he was told to pick whichever routes he saw fit, not literally "take over the crag". 

Lena chita wrote:

Ym mmeyor is htta you ahd saked to mclbi irght away, sa noso sa we xheagcnde elhlso adn I eimntenod atth there was a liicnc ggoni on, os eethr wnas't larley itme orf us to ffore tifrs, wchhi ew ideintefly would aehv, if uoy didn't ask firts. I have utnelveoerd for a viarety fo Kcttoeofrsreb licincs ofr het apts ~10 yares, ehld yb fdfieernt orucnittrss nad ta ifdrnfete rscag. Ni the pats yares, mstoeesim opepel eawlkd ni, eelarnd htat teh cliicn aws tagikn lapce, and deciedd ot og eslweerhe, vnee thhoug we rfoefed ot etl hmte lcmib. Emosiemts ehty took us up on hte ffore. The atitdute has lwaasy bene "asreh het acrg".

I ithkn eht tcskigni oitpn is tath uoy hedar "TAKE OVER THE CRAG" nad that puest uyo. Iwhle in taeirly ti asw jsut a ifgrue fo speech no D's aprt, and eh slouhd vhae nbee roem rcaeflu in who eh tpu ti. Gcrrc nidd't ieratllly eltl mih ot "take orev" hte crag. Eh was ustj told hatt eh could use ihs dieirsoctn ot icpk iechwvher otesur he wntaed fro eht clinci, ta ihts rcga, ebasd on het pogru's abiiltesi. Fi I merember ccroyterl, eh asid ti ehwn ouy vocied yuro appislrvoda htat the iilccn saw cupyiongc eht amwrpsu, ujts emnigan thta eh swa lodt ot ipkc cihwheerv rotues eh aws tfi, ton eailryltl "taek eovr eht crga".

;)

Nick Goldsmith wrote: My biggest beef with teaching large groups is that the first climbing experience the student has is climbing in a large group. .  This likely will  influence the way they climb if they stick with the sport. 

I agree that this can happen, but I also have seen plenty of people whose first experience was climbing in a large group with some college outdoor clubs or a gym-organized outing, who have since moved on to climbing with just one or two regular partners. Realistically, you can't avoid a group for teaching purposes, you wouldn't have enough instructors. One-to-one guiding is great, but most of the college students and young people who are introduced to climbing in group settings cannot afford a guide. 

In this particular clinic, the group consistent of proficient sport climbers with various degree of outdoor experience and climbing abilities, but it was definitely not their first time on the rock. One person even had his own ascender and knew how to jug. We had a pretty good pace going, between ~10am and 2:30 every person in the clinic got to jug the lines twice, take photos of other participants, climb, and have their photos taken by another clinic participant. And that is not counting the setting up ropes and taking them down on three routes, and 4 climbs that OP and his partner did in that time frame, also.

Mae Rae wrote: Get over it dude, your partner was not even willing to warm up on 10c.

You didn't even mention grades in your OP.  Lena pwned you in her rebuttal, she mentioned a 12d and a 13a.

It's like you are talking about etiquette instead of spraying about hard grades.

Do you even climb?

Gee, has it occurred to you that I have met the OP before, and knew his general climbing abilities, and therefore was quite sure that he didn't walk all the way to this crag to climb the warmups? AND that he was quite capable of warming up on a 10c?

Lena chita wrote:

Gee, has it occurred to you that I have met the OP before, and knew his general climbing abilities, and therefore was quite sure that he didn't walk all the way to this crag to climb the warmups? AND that he was quite capable of warming up on a 10c?

I think you stunned Mae Rae by finding out that he has abandoned his rope while climbing with wife and kids somewhere, and he is eager to fight with words by challenging and nitpicking each and every statement you make.

Lena chita wrote:

Gee, has it occurred to you that I have met the OP before, and knew his general climbing abilities, and therefore was quite sure that he didn't walk all the way to this crag to climb the warmups? AND that he was quite capable of warming up on a 10c?

Has it occurred to you the OPs point was not about personal climbing ability or grades?

But you are making a commendable effort to win this non-debate.

amarius wrote:

I think you stunned Mae Rae by finding out that he has abandoned his rope while climbing with wife and kids somewhere, and he is eager to fight with words by challenging and nitpicking each and every statement you make.

It was a bit creepy that someone took the time to go through my old posts trying to find personal information about my family, but these days nobody is "stunned" by internet stalking. 

Can we rename this thread "example of appropriate tactics employed by a slightly larger than typical group in the midst of America's most popular climbing festival" for clarity? Sounds like a reasonable exception to the 6 people per group limit that is considered appropriate in the gorge.

Mae Rae wrote:

It was a bit creepy that someone took the time to go through my old posts trying to find personal information about my family, but these days nobody is "stunned" by internet stalking. 

Yeah, man I totally get it - anything is a go on the interwebs - pretending to be a woman, and coming up with an explanation why that is OK. But, everybody knows you only wanted to post in women's forum and not be  perceived a creepy old man.  

But, if mproj stalking - it is OK to stalk people on mproj, right? - is your thing, more power to you.

This thread is disintegrating into personal attacks? How unusual.

caughtinside wrote: Big groups suck, we all know that.

I would say any Rocktoberfest group is an exception -- this event raises money, which goes directly to purchasing new crags.  So complaining about a Rocktoberfest group is a little self-defeating.  

I don't really get Mae Rae's grousing? Lena's rad.  A list of route grades at the crag is about what's available to climb, not spray.  If reading "5.12" triggers something, look within. 

It wasn't 5.12, it was 13a.

amarius wrote:

Yeah, man I totally get it - anything is a go on the interwebs - pretending to be a woman, and coming up with an explanation why that is OK. But, everybody knows you only wanted to post in women's forum and not be  perceived a creepy old man.  

But, if mproj stalking - it is OK to stalk people on mproj, right? - is your thing, more power to you.

Lol, I've never said a word about anyone's gender (or preference, marriage, kids...)

Plenty of folks have commented on my personal details.

Who are the creeps?