Groups take over

My partner and I arivied at a small crag in Miller Fork RRG, a group of about 10 people were top roping 2 routes, no one currently climbing, and the routes are the only warm ups on the wall. I asked if they were finished, but the group leader said they were going to be there the whole day for a photo clinic put on by the RRGCC. I mentioned politely what bad etiquette that was, to which he said the RRGCC told him to "Just take over a crag."  So I asked him what he thought as a long time climber, he said he thought it was bad etiquette too. I asked him if we could climb through and do the 2 warm ups, which he agreed too, and them apologized. He was the exception today.  I am confident in speaking up, as a climber of more than 25 years, I have seen this phenomenon more and more. Groups of people running all day trains on routes, people trying to "reserve" routes for people that are not there while other pairs wait, even people trying to cut into line for a popular sport route, because they left their draws on it the day before. When I learned to climb, I was told that if you are in a group, if anyone even looks like they are wanting to do the route, you invite them to climb through. Today, I am often met with resistance or outright refusal to climb through these large groups.  I am curious, what is others sentiment on this?

I don't know if anyone pays attention, but there is a sign at the trailhead for the Nose area of Looking Glass Rock which specifically prohibits this sort of thing. No "claiming" routes before the group arrives, yield the first pitch of a multipitch if you're toproping and another party wants to climb the entire route, don't use classic routes to teach climbing basics.

Have not experienced this, that I recall. Glad the person had some common sense.

Yup.. I've been climbing for a couple months and have already found this to be the case out here in CO. These guide companies will come through with 10-15 people and just take over several routes on already popular/crowded crags. Everyone else at the crag seems to share my sentiment too because we're all rolling our eyes at one another and talking smack   

Groups and classes - yep. It's becoming more and more prevalent at popular crags.

Generally, I don't like crowds - so I just move onto another area...

If they are blocking up a start to a multi-pitch, it's a different story.

MisterE Wolfe wrote: Groups and classes - yep. It's becoming more and more prevalent at popular crags.

Generally, I don't like crowds - so I just move onto another area...

If they are blocking up a start to a multi-pitch, it's a different story.

Serious question... if I show up to climb a 4-pitch classic with bolted belays where the first pitch is sort of a "choose your own adventure", and a guide group is toproping the first pitch, can I just climb past them and build my anchor at the belay station? If yes, should I build a gear anchor, or can I clip the bolts as long as I don't compromise their toprope system?

This kind of thing is pretty common at places like the RRG.  You could write a snarky email to the RRGCC, but honestly, LCO's occasionally do "take over" crags for various reasons (clinics, photo shoots), and they usually don't see it as a big deal.  It would be nice if they and other big groups would do this at less-traveled crags, but usually they're looking for the same easy accessibility, close bolts, and easy routes that all others are looking for at crowded crags.

If you don't want to run into this, you've got plenty of options: climb on gear, hike a bit, climb harder, or climb Monday through Friday.  

Ran into this at Elephant Rock at City of Rocks a few years ago.  Guiding company from Seattle.  I talked with the staff at the Almo visitors center and the group was gone later that day!!

Idaho Bob wrote: Ran into this at Elephant Rock at City of Rocks a few years ago.  Guiding company from Seattle.  I talked with the staff at the Almo visitors center and the group was gone later that day!!

More than likely in that case the guiding company did not have a commercial use permit and would be cited if they remained. Aka rouge guiding.

I just want to say, that in the particular case of this photo clinic, I'm guessing you're referring to the one put on during Rocktoberfest. This is an event run, once a year, by the RRGCC to raise funds to maintain the cliffs and keep access open. I wasn't at Miller Fork that day, but at least in PMRP the RRGCC tried to post signs at the trail heads explaining what was happening so people could avoid it if they wanted to. And while it would be nice to keep the clinics to "less-traveled" crags, Rocktoberfest tends to be busy enough that you're almost certainly going to be in somebody's way no matter where you go.

If it is a top rope / single pitch area who cares as long as they doni't mind you using their ropes when noone else is or lead around their rope. If they are using the ropes all day long than well as long as it just isn't blocking. If it is a multi-pitch start and they are blocking the upper routes they should get out of the way as soon as someone wants to go up.

The only way it is really wrong is if they are sitting there blocking pitches that aren't being use. If someone tries to tell you that you can't top rope a climb because it is a lead climb and you are trying to top rope it I would just laugh at them (given there are climbs that just aren't safe / good to top rope due to the way the route goes up).

Just don't cry about it as long as they aren't blocking you and not using the climb.

I was the volunteer for the clinic you are referring to, so let's describe the scene adequately, shall we?

1) The clinic had 6 participants, and two people running it. That's 8, not 10 total.

2) we did not take over a 5-star classic route at a popular crag. We went to a quiet out-of-the way crag. Until you showed up in the afternoon, there was NOBODY at this crag, other than clinic participants, so the fact that we had two ropes up is completely irrelevant. But as soon as you DID show up, we unfixed first one route, than the other, and you were able to climb without waiting. Other than you and your partner, there were only two other people who showed up at ~2.30, just as we were wrapping up, and only one route still had draws on it. They were able to climb without waiting, also.

3) the two routes that we fixed were around the corner and away from the main wall of this crag, so in case people did show up to climb there, we wouldn't be in their way. And these were not the routes people travel to this crag to climb. There are classic 12d, 12a, and 13a. None of which were in any way impeded by our clinic. There were even plenty of warmups available at the main wall-- a 10c, 11a,  and 11b, more than an adequate  for people that come to this crag to climb the main attractions of this crag. (And I would even argue, those were better warmups for 5.12-5.13 than the routes we " took over"). The two routes that we fixed had dripping-wet starts, which is also something that factored in when we set up on them, since the clinic participants were jugging the fixed lines, and were not affected by the wet rock, but the climbers would have been (they dried out some by the afternoon when you showed up, but the 10c warmup was completely dry even in the morning.)

Just because your partner wasn't willing to warmup on 10c, doesn't mean that we weren't trying to minimize our impact at the crag.  We tried to be considerate, we let you climb the routes as soon as you showed up, and I honestly don't know what we could have done that would have been more to your liking, other than not being there at all.

And if that's your wish, then sorry. One day out of the year people who donate money to help purchase and maintain the very areas that you enjoy climbing at can sign up for clinics and learn something while climbing the same rock that you want to climb. Big groups can be a problem, but if you are mad at big groups, you are mad at the wrong people here. We have experienced big groups ourselves, and that is why we went out of our way to make sure you could climb the routes you wanted to climb, clinic or no clinic.

Edited to add: OP, it seems that I may have misinterpreted your post as a complaint about our group specifically, rather than a general complaint about big groups, in which case, I'm sorry. We did everything we could to minimize the effect of our group, but this was a special once-a-year event, for which people should be willing to make an allowance, since it is a special once-a-year fundraiser event for the area. 6 participants is as small as the clinics could realistically go, and still make the fundraising aspect worthwhile.

David Draper wrote: My partner and I arivied at a small crag in Miller Fork RRG, a group of about 10 people were top roping 2 routes, no one currently climbing, and the routes are the only warm ups on the wall. I asked if they were finished, but the group leader said they were going to be there the whole day for a photo clinic put on by the RRGCC. I mentioned politely what bad etiquette that was, to which he said the RRGCC told him to "Just take over a crag."  So I asked him what he thought as a long time climber, he said he thought it was bad etiquette too. I asked him if we could climb through and do the 2 warm ups, which he agreed too, and them apologized. He was the exception today.  I am confident in speaking up, as a climber of more than 25 years, I have seen this phenomenon more and more. Groups of people running all day trains on routes, people trying to "reserve" routes for people that are not there while other pairs wait, even people trying to cut into line for a popular sport route, because they left their draws on it the day before. When I learned to climb, I was told that if you are in a group, if anyone even looks like they are wanting to do the route, you invite them to climb through. Today, I am often met with resistance or outright refusal to climb through these large groups.  I am curious, what is others sentiment on this?

While in general you're right about the group problem, this specific instance isn't the best example. You encountered the one weekend a year when RRGCC puts on clinics as part of their Rocktoberfest fundraiser. The whole point of them monopolizing the crag that day is to raise funds to pay the rent, so to speak. Miller Fork wouldn't even exist as a publicly-accessible climbing area if not for the efforts of RRGCC and the Access Fund.

The guide you encountered may not have even been local, and was probably given his marching orders from some harried, overworked volunteer organizer. Ironically, I think they sometimes aim for small, out of the way crags for the clinics to stay out of people's way. Then of course you go to some small, out of the way crag to get away from the Rocktoberfest crowds and hilarity ensues. We had that happen to us one year when we went to Global Village thinking no one would be there, and some pro climbers were putting on a trad clinic. Much like your situation, we all ended up getting around each other ok, but it was less than ideal.

In the more general regard, I think the worst problems I've had with groups weren't led by what I'd call "professional" guides. More the school, club, scout types of groups. Those folks can string up some MAJOR clusterfucks. Most people who guide for a living know better than to shit where they eat.

Jared Chrysostom wrote:

Serious question... if I show up to climb a 4-pitch classic with bolted belays where the first pitch is sort of a "choose your own adventure", and a guide group is toproping the first pitch, can I just climb past them and build my anchor at the belay station? If yes, should I build a gear anchor, or can I clip the bolts as long as I don't compromise their toprope system?

Climb the pitch and clip the bolts. They would have no right to have a problem with this.

I don't know OP, but I do know Lena, and I will take her word over OP's. It looks to me as if the class took over the shittiest climbs at the crag, and made commendable effort to not inconvenience other climbers. Sort of amusing to hear the other side of story

I'm confused.  The OP explained a situation he has been encountering in general and then pointed to an example where the end result was basically "this group was courteous and let us climb, but they were the exception, not the rule".  My takeaway from his post was "this group did it right, why can't more groups do it this way?".  The group leader's response makes it seem like they were called out for being inconsiderate... which they weren't.

~ Gabe

Gabe Schwartz wrote: I'm confused.  The OP explained a situation he has been encountering in general and then pointed to an example where the end result was basically "this group was courteous and let us climb, but they were the exception, not the rule".  My takeaway from his post was "this group did it right, why can't more groups do it this way?".  The group leader's response makes it seem like they were called out for being inconsiderate... which they weren't.

~ Gabe

There's nothing to be confused about, the conclusion is very clear:

There were actually 8 people and not "about 10" which means the OP is totally in the wrong and we should all let the group gangropers rule the crag.

Gabe Schwartz wrote: I'm confused.  The OP explained a situation he has been encountering in general and then pointed to an example where the end result was basically "this group was courteous and let us climb, but they were the exception, not the rule".  My takeaway from his post was "this group did it right, why can't more groups do it this way?".  The group leader's response makes it seem like they were called out for being inconsiderate... which they weren't.

~ Gabe

I am glad if this is how the OP meant it, and this is the take-home people get from his post. I read it as a complaint about big groups, using the clinic group as an example, partly because several people responding to OP have also complained about clinics shutting down or taking over the crags.

RRGCC has, in the past, posted signs at the trailheads notifying people that there would be clinic held at this particular crag. People have complained, because they interpreted these signs as coalition "shutting down" the crags for the clinics, and this was definitely not the intent of RRGCC. They make a big deal out of the fact that climbers own the land, so it can't be shut down, so they wanted to avoid even the appearance of shutting down a crag for a day, I guess.

This time there were no signs at the trailheads, at least not for the clinic that i volunteered for. But maybe there were no signs because the clinic locations are determined at the last-minute, and based on the weather. In the past the clinics got shifted around because of the rain, sun, etc.

I personally would prefer to know ahead of time which crags have clinics at them, so I would avoid the crag for that day, and not walk all the way to the wall to find out that the route I wnated to climb is occupied. But it seems that regardless of what is done, someone is unhappy about it.

Lena chita wrote:

But it seems that regardless of what is done, someone is unhappy about it.

I hear you. 

Every time I hog a crag with unused topropes, someone has to complain about it.

I appreciate everyone's input, I really do. A couple of things. The group leader and volunteer were very gracious and helpful to us, I hope that was clear in my post. I wish more were more like them. The only small but important thing, is that had I not asked to climb through, I don't believe he nor Lena Chita would have offered to let us climb, as I gave them both time to do so. Probably because of what the RRGCC had told him about "just take over the crag." To address amarius, no, not the shittiest routes, the actual only warmups and were 3 stars each, quite good really. Finally, on our way out that evening we noticed a RRGCC sign that mentioned the clinics. Our crag was not among them, but we also noticed that the sign explicitly mentioned "share the crag." That seems to be a contraction to what the RRGCC told the group leader, but I am glad he followed good etiquette in spite of this.
I believe this, when groups are at a cliff, they must follow a higher standard, be aware of noise, pack explosions, etc, and if people show up, proactively allow them to climb if those were the routes they were seeking. 

Get over it dude, your partner was not even willing to warm up on 10c.

You didn't even mention grades in your OP.  Lena pwned you in her rebuttal, she mentioned a 12d and a 13a.

It's like you are talking about etiquette instead of spraying about hard grades.

Do you even climb?