Is the overhand/EDK now unsafe for joining ropes?

Tradiban wrote: The edk has crossed the threshold to where its too likely to get fucked up. One fuck up kills people. Switch to something different that's fool proof. I know my go to, yours?

Down lead instead of rap!

Matt Zia wrote:

Bring a 140m rope for one rope 70m rappels. No knot to f-up and makes linking pitches a breeze. Or just walk off. 

Bro, just get a 160m you'll never go back to those 140s. 

Mason Stone wrote: Watched a guy tie the edk on a 9.6 and 7mm tag line. He started to rappel and as he rapped I watched as his knot rolled. He had it backed up with a second edk, I told him it wa rolling to which he replied its ok I have it backed up. It did not role past the second knot. I did the same rap same knot except my ropes were 10.2 and 9.6. My partner said my knot stayed put. Have a look at what Gold has posted on this site about tying edk with dissimilar sized ropes.

That's just it, for this knot to be 100% good one has to do extra steps, extra steps get missed when people are tired. Edk is just bad practice.

"Is the overhand/EDK now unsafe for joining ropes?"

No. Next question!

Tradiban wrote:

That's just it, for this knot to be 100% good one has to do extra steps, extra steps get missed when people are tired. Edk is just bad practice.

Could also be just not aware that care needs to be taken.

Of course, one who can not stay focused enough to get the EDK correct probably should be averse to climbing in general during those times of distractability. 

Tradiban wrote:

That's just it, for this knot to be 100% good one has to do extra steps, extra steps get missed when people are tired. Edk is just bad practice.

A truly worthless comment! I have to perform extra steps through everything I do in climbing. Re-thread my harness buckle, lace my shoes, check where my nuts are hanging, sometimes I even indicate when I´m turning into the parking lot. 

The  EDK is perfectly acceptable as long as you understand it´s limitations and appreciate it´s advantages, if you don´t understand them then continue in ignorance.

Matt Himmelstein wrote: It is no safer or less safe than it was before the book was written.  If you can tie it and use it properly, then it is fine; if you can't then it isn't.  I don't use it, so I would not be comfortable tying it, and would go with another knot.  Depending on who I was climbing with, I might be OK rapping on it if the other person tied it, since I can't really check it.

Tradiban wrote: 

That's just it, for this knot to be 100% good one has to do extra steps, extra steps get missed when people are tired. Edk is just bad practice.

Tradiban wrote:

 

That's just it, for this knot to be 100% good one has to do extra steps, extra steps get missed when people are tired. Edk is just bad practice.

Geeze, we're talking about one of the 5 easiest knots on the planet to tie. What's more, "extra steps" are needed with any knot joining two ropes and the extra steps involved with the EDK  consist of "leave 18" tails". Do what you like but if you're so incompetent that tying an EDK represents a risk, you probably shouldn't be climbing.

Climbing itself is the pursuit of extra steps.

We could just all stay on the couch.

"Extra steps" seems to me to be a linguistic quibble.  For example, take the knot I described a few posts above and rename it the Bumwad Knot, or BWK for short.  There are no extra steps involved in tying the BWK.  Problem solved.

Mae Rae wrote: Climbing itself is the pursuit of extra steps.

We could just all stay on the couch.

Anyone who doesn't under why "extra steps" are a problem doesn't climb enough.

Under stress your mind's ability to function is greatly diminished. The EDK is fine and dandy but then there's that one day where someone forgets.

Your safety systems need to be done without thinking to be safe. Systems with variations a suspectable to mistakes.

Tradiban wrote:

Anyone who doesn't under why "extra steps" are a problem doesn't climb enough.

Under stress your mind's ability to function is greatly diminished. The EDK is fine and dandy but then there's that one day where someone forgets.

Your safety systems need to be done without thinking to be safe. Systems with variations a suspectable to mistakes.

“Extra steps” you mean like making sure your knot is well dressed and has adequate tail? Don’t you do that with every single knot you tie when climbing? WTF is so damn complicated about that?

As a side bar, I’m willing to bet most people here can tie a well-dressed EDK with adequate tail faster than you can tie a well-dressed double-fisherman’s or Flemish Bend. 

Tradiban wrote:

Anyone who doesn't under why "extra steps" are a problem doesn't climb enough.

Under stress your mind's ability to function is greatly diminished. The EDK is fine and dandy but then there's that one day where someone forgets.

Your safety systems need to be done without thinking to be safe. Systems with variations a suspectable to mistakes.

I'm curious what knot you would suggest, with the criteria being that it must take *less* steps than an EDK to tie correctly...?

Tradiban wrote:Your safety systems need to be done without thinking to be safe. 

Yikes!  I think I know what you mean about the desireability of certain processes being automatic, but the way this reads...I would have thought that the moment you stop thinking is precisely when safety starts to erode.  Some of my worst moments have occurred while on autopilot.

Systems with variations a suspectable to mistakes.

So, for instance, I always tie the BWK, not just when rope diameters are uneven or ropes are soaked.  Same knot, same way, every time, so no variation and no susceptibility.

Someone doesn't understand EDK.

Tradiban wrote:

Anyone who doesn't under why "extra steps" are a problem doesn't climb enough.

Under stress your mind's ability to function is greatly diminished. The EDK is fine and dandy but then there's that one day where someone forgets.

Your safety systems need to be done without thinking to be safe. Systems with variations a suspectable to mistakes.

You are right that I don't climb enough.

I get what you are trying to say but when Tradiban digs himself into a hole we are going to have fun with it.  You should be flattered, really.

Extra is relative. There's a sweet spot in the trade-offs between safety, complexity and all that. Good news is that nobody here is doing it wrong, however they do it.

Matt Zia wrote:

“Extra steps” you mean like making sure your knot is well dressed and has adequate tail? Don’t you do that with every single knot you tie when climbing? WTF is so damn complicated about that?

As a side bar, I’m willing to bet most people here can tie a well-dressed EDK with adequate tail faster than you can tie a well-dressed double-fisherman’s or Flemish Bend. 

Speed is a detriment to safety. If you are thinking more about speed you are also more likely to screw it up.

Personally I will stick with the EDK because a "death knot" adds some spice to my otherwise weak climbing.

I see some merit in Tradibans comment if one normally climbs with half ropes or twins tied with an 18 inch tail and one day decides to uses a super skinny tag line and just ties it the same way reflexively. But other than that, I have no clue what extra steps or dangers he’s referring to. I leave 24 inch tails every time I tie it, that’s how the knot gets tied, just like the Yosemite finish on a figure 8. It’s not an extra step it’s just the knot and I won’t forget to leave long enough tails, because the tail length is part of the knot.

And speed being a detriment to safety in the context of rappel systems is crazy. While rapping is mostly used as merely a way to get down off a route once you’re done climbing, it’s also what you have to do to get help for an injured climber, or  when that thunderstorm is barreling down on you, and at that point speed getting off the wall is intrinsically connected with safety.

Ryan M Moore wrote: But other than that, I have no clue what extra steps or dangers he’s referring to.

None. Once again, it's Trolliban amusing himself by shit posting.

Marc801 C wrote: None. Once again, it's Trolliban amusing himself by shit posting.

I think Tradiban is talking about rgold's extra step explained above.

Basically a different knot, with a new name, that starts out an EDK, but then with an extra step.

I actually agree with him but still enjoy the mocking.