Women's climbing festival

Gyms are close to 50/50, just my observation.

Outside? First, remember, most gym climbers, male or female, have zero interest in climbing outside. 

This weekend? Because my regular partner showed up in addition to the lady I was hosting, we were a party of three. Which means, I happily let my very experienced male partner take over with her. Why? Because right next to us was a group of young, new, climbers, two guys and two girls. Also only two harnesses. A brand new, stiff rope. New draws. One of the guys took a shot at leading while I rode herd on his belayer, the other guy, who had never lead belayed before, and not much belaying at all, it looked like. Those two did all the belays, the ladies took turns on top rope, no belaying. We also left my rope up next door for them to take turns on.

I loaned them my stick clip, my draws to set up for top roping, gave instruction and advice, and we cleaned the ropes for them.

All of this freely given, and gratefully accepted. Nothing new or different here.

However? I have never seen a woman who is brand new decide to take a group that is totally new out to climb. I've not seen (or heard) many stories of girlfriends taking out some guy who has never climbed, handing him a grigri, then complaining when she gets decked.

Precisely because it is intimidating and has risk and challenge, is exactly what our sport can give to anyone​ who thinks they should stand back and not go for it. Girls are getting there, but it is still a very, very, intimidating culture to break into. I'm four years in now, and only barely accepted as a climber. Yes, because I'm a noob. But it still means having to get here on someone else's terms, fair or not.
...........

On the other hand.....

Humorously? When we got back to the parking lot yesterday, at our local crag, a car pulled up, stuffed full of young people. Several got out, grabbed packs, and it was obvious they were going to their cars after being at the next spot up the road. Out of towners.

My partner and I had just hiked down, packs on, dirty, scraped up, and I carried my stick clip and had my rope across my pack, helmet strapped on too. Happy Climbers, lol!

One of the young guns stared at me, jaw dropped, and walked over with his hand outstretched. Introduced himself. I'm trying to figure out if I know him. The group chatted briefly, and we all went on our way.

Once in my car? I finally realized what likely happened. A tiny old woman, looking like a badass climber?!? Must be A Somebody!!

LOLOL!!

Best, OLH

Kalli Schumacher wrote: Can you really get all over Lena for not considering your ideas when you won’t consider hers that is based off years of experiences?

Do you really think that people haven't considered Lena's ideas?

Lena is invoking the nature vs. nurture arguments as they apply to gender roles, stereotypes.  These are not new or original ideas. They've been around for long time, longer than Lena has been alive, longer than I've been alive.  Feminist thinking has been around much longer than sport climbing.

The debate is not new, and the answer is far from settled. It's a huge complex question that scientists and philosophers have been grappling with for decades.  Every parent with a daughter experienced it firsthand over many years.  It involves the most complex mechanisms of our biology, it involves complex mechanisms of society.  Nobody does, or possibly ever will, understand it completely.

I don't know the answers. I never claimed I did. Lena, on the other hand, is absolutely certain.  And she's imposing that certainty on other climbers:

"I’m actually really frustrated sometimes about fellow women. Here’s an example:"

"The thing is though, she is not the only woman like that, I have met many. And it is incredibly frustrating to me."

The only thing I'm trying to say is that CLIMBING SHOULD BE FUN.  And it should not be judgemental. Forcing personal ideals about society and gender roles on people during a top roping session is ridiculous.

Ok. Poor word choice. But the point being is the common trend in these threads is to completely disregard an argument and instead try to prove it wrong.

So again.  Can you perhaps consider that nurture has something to do with all of this? If it is indeed not settled as you claim, aren't there valid arguments on both sides? Why respond so aggressively.

Mae Rae wrote:
The only thing I'm trying to say is that CLIMBING SHOULD BE FUN.  And it should not be judgemental. Forcing personal ideals about society and gender roles on people during a top roping session is ridiculous.

I agree.  Climbing should be fun.  And though you don't see how society and gender roles affects people's fun, women do. 

Kalli Schumacher wrote: Ok. Poor word choice. But the point being is the common trend in these threads is to completely disregard an argument and instead try to prove it wrong.

So again.  Can you perhaps consider that nurture has something to do with all of this? If it is indeed not settled as you claim, aren't there valid arguments on both sides? Why respond so aggressively.

I agree.  Climbing should be fun.  And though you don't see how society and gender roles affects people's fun, women do. 

I never said nurture has nothing do with it and specifically said that I'm not taking a position in that debate.  You are outright misrepresenting my words.

I'm also not trying to "prove" anyone wrong by pressuring other climbers on the end of the rope and then telling stories about them on the internet when they don't meet my expectations.  I don't think anyone should do these things, but you seem to think that certain women have earned that authority.  I have no idea why someone would defend statements like "I'm frustrated with other women"

The really sad thing is that people make generalizations like "women do"  

Nobody speaks for all women.

Mae Rae wrote:

I never said nurture has nothing do with it and specifically said that I'm not taking a position in that debate.  You are outright misrepresenting my words.

I'm also not trying to "prove" anyone wrong by pressuring other climbers on the end of the rope and then telling stories about them on the internet when they don't meet my expectations.  I don't think anyone should do these things, but you seem to think that certain women have earned that authority.  I have no idea why someone would defend statements like "I'm frustrated with other women"

The really sad thing is that people make generalizations like "women do"  

Nobody speaks for all women.

Mae? You missed an important word of Lena's: sometimes. She wasn't speaking in absolutes, nor saying what everyone should feel, whatever. You haven't been either, nor most who have posted.

Please remember, we have no tone of voice or anything softening your thoughtful, considered responses. They are (to my ears) coming off perhaps harsh. I don't think they are intended that way, and honestly, I think you and I and Lena, and most everyone on this thread could have a grand time discussing.... whatever.

But post climbing. Dibs on the easy peasy warmup lead! ;-)

Best, Helen

Eric wrote: 
Would you entertain the possibility (not saying this is the case, I don't know) that men are more likely to get interested and stay interested in climbing?

Is it possible that unequal outcomes can be caused by something other than bigotry/social conditioning?

I would absolutely entertain this possibility. My job is entertaining possibilities (as they apply to cancer research, not gender studies).

But I do not see a strong evidence that suggests that male and female participation in climbing at a recreational hobby level is inherently expected to be different, based on something other than societal attitudes. Biology didn't change in the past 25 years. But women participation in climbing has increased dramatically in the same time frame.

The question is, are we now at the point where this is as far as society effect goes. The societal attitudes have changed so completely that there are no elements of social conditioning at play anymore, and the difference can be explained purely by biology. I do not think so. I predict that the number of women participants will continue to increase, and we will see more female bolters/developers/FAs, more female route-setters, more female competitors, etc. Until we get to the point where the numbers are much closer to 50/50. I don't think it would be exactly 50:50 in everything, but it would be much closer to 50:50 than it is now, and at some point we will see what the steady-state rate actually is. But we haven't achieved it yet.. 

Lena chita wrote:

The question is, are we now at the point where this is as far as society effect goes. The societal attitudes have changed so completely that there are no elements of social conditioning at play anymore, and the difference can be explained purely by biology. I do not think so. I predict that the number of women participants will continue to increase, and we will see more female bolters/developers/FAs, more female route-setters, more female competitors, etc. Until we get to the point where the numbers are much closer to 50/50. I don't think it would be exactly 50:50 in everything, but it would be much closer to 50:50 than it is now, and at some point we will see what the steady-state rate actually is. But we haven't achieved it yet.. 

I think that the societal attitudes have changed and that what we will have is simply a different type of social conditioning. Who is to say how that will be viewed in the future, as history has shown that many things that were decidedly good for society at the time can now be viewed as great travesties. 

Speaking of biology, I think that most young infants and toddlers have the propensity to climb. Socializing kids out of that natural tendency is more about behavior and forcing an acceptable behavior than it is to do with gender.  Getting into climbing as an older child or adult has different factors at play, one must first have retained some natural inclination to climb things and to test oneself both mentally and physically, you have to enjoy the outdoors to some degree, and you have to have disposable income. To me those three things come before gender when trying to explain why some get into climbing and others don't.

I tend to agree with your prediction that we will continue to see more women in climbing. These days there is more and more interest in the outdoors in general and a lot more climbing in the mainstream media. 

Mae Rae wrote:

I never said nurture has nothing do with it and specifically said that I'm not taking a position in that debate.  You are outright misrepresenting my words.

I'm also not trying to "prove" anyone wrong by pressuring other climbers on the end of the rope and then telling stories about them on the internet when they don't meet my expectations.  I don't think anyone should do these things, but you seem to think that certain women have earned that authority.  I have no idea why someone would defend statements like "I'm frustrated with other women"

The really sad thing is that people make generalizations like "women do"  

Nobody speaks for all women.

I have stayed away from responding to your "coaching advice", in order not to bog down this thread even further, but since you keep bringing this up:

You are reading a lot into what i said, and you are making incorrect assumptions about me and this woman, based on admittedly-short description of the weekend. Have you considered a possibility that I had known this couple (outside of climbing) for a good number of years, and I have a better readout of her attitude and needs than you do, over the internet? Does it mater to you that at the end of the weekend she thanked me for pushing her to try harder, and said that she needs more encouragement like that? Does it matter that her husband (who works with my husband) had told my husband on Monday that his wife had climbed much better than he thought she would, and she now wants to go to the gym more often than they have been going previously?

I doubt it would make a difference, but considering how you thought i was making assumptions about Greg, when I asked him how often he climbs in a group larger than 2, where he is the only male, maybe you should check your assumptions, too.

My frustrations are my own, and I am entitled to feel frustrated about anything I want, from the attitude of my friend about climbing, to the attitude of my son about gardening.

But to be crystal clear, "I have met many women like this" absolutely does not equal "all women do this". And "I am frustrated about X sometimes" does not mean "I am permanently frustrated by X"

Lena chita wrote: 

I have stayed away from responding to your "coaching advice", in order not to bog down this thread even further, but since you keep bringing this up:

You are reading a lot into what i said, and you are making incorrect assumptions about me and this woman, based on admittedly-short description of the weekend. Have you considered a possibility that I had known this couple (outside of climbing) for a good number of years, and I have a better readout of her attitude and needs than you do, over the internet? Does it mater to you that at the end of the weekend she thanked me for pushing her to try harder, and said that she needs more encouragement like that? Does it matter that her husband (who works with my husband) had told my husband on Monday that his wife had climbed much better than he thought she would, and she now wants to go to the gym more often than they have been going previously?

I doubt it would make a difference, but considering how you thought i was making assumptions about Greg, when I asked him how often he climbs in a group larger than 2, where he is the only male, maybe you should check your assumptions, too.

My frustrations are my own, and I am entitled to feel frustrated about anything I want, from the attitude of my friend about climbing, to the attitude of my son about gardening.

But to be crystal clear, "I have met many women like this" absolutely does not equal "all women do this". And "I am frustrated about X sometimes" does not mean "I am permanently frustrated by X"

Of course you are entitled to your own feelings about others. But you don't seem to understand that others are entitled to feelings about what you post here.

Your posts often make judgemental comments, even about people who are not participating in the threads.  Take the opening sentence right here:

I have stayed away from responding to your "coaching advice", in order not to bog down this thread even further, 

Are you the judge of what is quality conversation? Your posts are relevant, but mine are just "bogging down" the thread?

I think we are both equally guilty of bogging down the "Women's climbing festival" thread, so I'll offer this to get us back on track:

Don't forget about the FOJT Climb Smart event, that includes women's only clinics!

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/fojt-climb-smart-2018-tickets-47446014306

Just stopping by to throw out a real-life example of this conversation in another walk of life, game development/companies:

https://kotaku.com/two-riot-employees-leave-under-complicated-circumstance-1828886072

tl;dr

It spun wildly out of control and ended up with Reddit tirades and two people fired, at least one for violating his (former) company's social media policy.

Ashort wrote:

I think that the societal attitudes have changed and that what we will have is simply a different type of social conditioning. Who is to say how that will be viewed in the future, as history has shown that many things that were decidedly good for society at the time can now be viewed as great travesties. 

Speaking of biology, I think that most young infants and toddlers have the propensity to climb. Socializing kids out of that natural tendency is more about behavior and forcing an acceptable behavior than it is to do with gender.  Getting into climbing as an older child or adult has different factors at play, one must first have retained some natural inclination to climb things and to test oneself both mentally and physically, you have to enjoy the outdoors to some degree, and you have to have disposable income. To me those three things come before gender when trying to explain why some get into climbing and others don't.

I tend to agree with your prediction that we will continue to see more women in climbing. These days there is more and more interest in the outdoors in general and a lot more climbing in the mainstream media. 

Ooooo! Hey, another pertinent point this post made me think of.

People my age played. Period. Often outside. Girls too. At a certain point, you were expected to be more "girly" but as a kid, we all basically ran wild, on our own, all summer long.

That, I am sure, explains some of my "boldness" in taking up climbing, being outside, trying ice climbing.... going for it. This could very well be an age thing also, with a couple generations of planned activities types out there. Boys are still expected to be "rowdier", we medicate the hell out of them if they get wiggly at school, but no one is expected to get themselves to school, not for decades. 

And girls even more so. Too dangerous to go it alone.

Which brings us back to....hmmm. Women's climbing events.

Best, Helen

Here, I'll throw y'all a curve ball. In my experience, I have observed regional differences in the gender differences regarding who wants to really get into climbing and learn and advance vs those who only want to TR or boulder or wouldn't be there if it wasn't for friends, SO, etc. Most of my climbing has been in either the Southeast or the 4 corners region of SW.

In the southeast, most of the women I see at the crag are either there with a male partner, often SO, or in a large group consisting of mostly males. Most of them are not really motivated to learn more or advance in the sport. A lot of them are just there because their SO brought them along and would ultimately rather be doing something else if their SO wasn't really in to climbing.

Out west, and especially in CO I see many more women at the crag, and many more female-female partnerships at the crag. While there are certainly still women who aren't really into learning or progressing, these make a smaller % of women at the crag.

Perhaps it is purely coincidence that these observations happen to correspond to the social atmosphere regarding gender differences of those regions. Me thinks not. What do y'all think?

wonderwoman wrote:

Do you think people who are really into climbing end up in CO?   It seems like many of my East coast friends end up there.  If it weren’t for my awesome job right now, I’d head there, too!

I think people who live for climbing move to where there is the most climbing to be had.

I think people from the east coast end up in CO for the climbing because it’s CO

Mae Rae wrote:

Are you the judge of what is quality conversation? Your posts are relevant, but mine are just "bogging down" the thread?

I do not understand why you interpret things the way you do.

I had chosen not to respond to some points of your posts in order for MY comments not to bog down the thread further.

I think we are both equally guilty of bogging down the "Women's climbing festival" thread, 

Yes, we are. But we are also having a relevant conversation.

so I'll offer this to get us back on track:

Don't forget about the FOJT Climb Smart event, that includes women's only clinics!

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/fojt-climb-smart-2018-tickets-47446014306

Rocktoberfest at the Red also includes a women-specific clinic, among many clinics that cater to everyone.
https://rrgcc.networkforgood.com/events/8330-rocktoberfest-2018

eli poss wrote: Here, I'll throw y'all a curve ball. In my experience, I have observed regional differences in the gender differences regarding who wants to really get into climbing and learn and advance vs those who only want to TR or boulder or wouldn't be there if it wasn't for friends, SO, etc. Most of my climbing has been in either the Southeast or the 4 corners region of SW.

In the southeast, most of the women I see at the crag are either there with a male partner, often SO, or in a large group consisting of mostly males. Most of them are not really motivated to learn more or advance in the sport. A lot of them are just there because their SO brought them along and would ultimately rather be doing something else if their SO wasn't really in to climbing.

Out west, and especially in CO I see many more women at the crag, and many more female-female partnerships at the crag. While there are certainly still women who aren't really into learning or progressing, these make a smaller % of women at the crag.

Perhaps it is purely coincidence that these observations happen to correspond to the social atmosphere regarding gender differences of those regions. Me thinks not. What do y'all think?

I agree that there are regional differences, I have seen them, and I am sure they account for some of the effect. However, the women's climbing festival that sparked this thread is in a California gym. And obviously there are women there who still feel the need for such an event.

I do wish this conversation wasn't so men/women binary (I'm guilty of contributing to that), because the fest in question was intended to be inclusive of non-binary people.

Lena chita wrote:

However, the women's climbing festival that sparked this thread is in a California gym. And obviously there are women there who still feel the need for such an event.

I think that they feel safe and are encouraged to do what is best for them a group

wonderwoman wrote:

Do you think people who are really into climbing end up in CO?   It seems like many of my East coast friends end up there.  If it weren’t for my awesome job right now, I’d head there, too!

I think people who live for climbing move to where there is the most climbing to be had.

Actually a lot of climbers are moving to Chattanooga these days, and to a lesser extent, western NC. 

I personally hate the women only climbing events/social gatherings/films/classes, etc and will avoid them at all cost. It implies we’re some freak of nature in the climbing world. It implies we need special treatment. It implies we need to be empowered. Whether by men or by women.

It’s a double standard. How would these women feel if there were men only events? Celebration of the male climber? They’d have a shit fit.

The women that go to these events love them. It helps them. And that’s awesome for them. But what bothers me is these sorts of things become a reflection on me bc I’m a women. Men will assume I don’t want to climb w them bc I’m a woman. People assume I want to sign up for the women’s only course. And on and on the assumption go all bc I’m a women.

Get rid of these stupid “women only” things. Climb bc you love to climb. The end. 

Mason, I just want to say how proud we all are of you.  You clearly put a lot of effort into your Gender Studies courses.  Good job!

Tara Storter wrote: I personally hate the women only climbing events/social gatherings/films/classes, etc and will avoid them at all cost. It implies we’re some freak of nature in the climbing world. It implies we need special treatment. It implies we need to be empowered. Whether by men or by women.

It’s a double standard. How would these women feel if there were men only events? Celebration of the male climber? They’d have a shit fit.

The women that go to these events love them. It helps them. And that’s awesome for them. But what bothers me is these sorts of things become a reflection on me bc I’m a women. Men will assume I don’t want to climb w them bc I’m a woman. People assume I want to sign up for the women’s only course. And on and on the assumption go all bc I’m a women.

Get rid of these stupid “women only” things. Climb bc you love to climb. The end. 

Hey Tara, I know where you are coming from. I actually used to feel this way, and somewhere on the RC.com there might be evidence of that. 10 years ago I thought that Chicks with Picks and "Goddess on the Rock" (that's an extremely cheesy name for the first generation of "women's climbing" events that were organized by Sterling Ropes, in partnership and as a fundraiser for HERA foundation, for those who haven't been climbing 10-15 years ago) I recall saying that I don't know that any female friends of mine would be so intimidated to try climbing in a co-ed environment that she would need a "safe" women-only environment.

I happened to go to one of those Sterling-organized events back then, not because I was looking for a women's fest, but because I happened to be on the West coast for work-related meeting that ended just before the climbing fest in JTree, and I was partner-less, and thought it would be a good way to find people to climb with. I ended up climbing for 3 days with a woman who was coming early for this event, and then attending the event. It was fun, in the same way that these type of events generally are, but I didn't think it was "worth it" in terms of paying money for attending it (though I supported the fundraiser aspect of it), and I thought it was generally silly to go to the trouble of organizing a specifically-women's climbing event.

I have since changed my mind. Several years later I happened to be at the same campground where Chicks with Picks (who have branched into rockclimbing around 9-10 years ago) had their trip. I wasn't part of it, but I knew some of the ladies who were guiding the trip, and I was making my dinner at the table next to the group. And I got to meet some ladies for whom this really was the first exposure to rock climbing, and see how different the atmosphere was. And as climbing got more popular, and more women were trying it, I also saw evidence that some women really needed and wanted the bit of extra support to get started.

I don't know any woman who sticks with climbing long-term who isn't climbing with partners of all genders. But if they got their start at a women's event, or got to learn some new skill at a women's event, it isn't such a bad thing. I do think that only a subset of women NEEDS a little bit of extra supportive atmosphere, majority of women don't. Others just enjoy a different dynamic for a weekend, or get to meet women that become their partners going forward, or just catch up with old partners they otherwise wouldn't get to see. But if you don't need it, nobody is forcing you to attend. I don't plan to, myself.

I feel that these events now are different, in a sense that they are organized by women, for women, they are more grassroots, not organized by someone like Sterling ropes, to promote an agenda. If down the line there is no desire for it, I don't think they would keep going. And they are no different than Homoclimbtastic event, for example. Do you also think that needs to be abolished, in order for YOU to not think about gays as "weak"? I mean, why do LGBT people need a special climbing event? They don't NEED it, but they want it. And they can organize it, all they want.

BTW, have you noticed that the same guys who demand the right to attend the women's only event have not demanded to attend Homoclimbtastic?