Women's climbing festival

Sam Cieply wrote: Touchstone Climbing is holding a Woman Up Climbing Festival at Cliffs of Id in LA with comps, classes, and clinics hosted by Lisa Rands, Emily Harrington, Anna Liina Laitinen, and other high-caliber female climbers. According to their website and social media posts, "Clinic participation is limited to womxn and underrepresented genders." I'm personally very disappointed, as I would love take a climbing clinic with those excellent climbers, and can't remember the last time they hosted a comparable event which I would be "allowed" to attend.

Assuming you are genuinely asking, it is very likely that the same professional athletes are teaching other clinics elsewhere, and they are all-gender-inclusive. Because most climbing fests, and most climbing clinics are. 

Look at the list of clinics at Red Rock Rendezvous, or Leavenworth rock fest, or International climbers fest in Lander... heck, pretty much any climbers fest. 

Why would you be bothered by the fact that there are a few women-specific events out there?
It’s would like me looking at the yoga class schedule, and complaining that they have yoga for parents, and they list “parents with infants up to 24 months” as their target audience... am I really going to throw a fit, because they have yoga for a specific target group, and I’m excluded from that one yoga class, when I have dozens of other classes available to me? 

“But I really like this time slot, and this instructor! Why can’t I go to THIS one?”
Bullshit!

Dude, you don’t want to go to the women-specific clinics at the women’s climbing fest. There is nothing for you there. Just like you don’t want to go to prenatal yoga. Or the 65-and-over water aerobics. 

They are not doing this to exclude YOU. They are doing it to provide targeted specific instruction to a special population that is not served optimally in a general yoga class, or a general water aerobics class. 

Mae Rae wrote: There should be a climbing festival for crag dogs only.

Well what does that solve? Sam wouldn't be allowed to participate there either.

Alicia Sokolowski wrote: I'm a simplistic gal. I'll climb with anyone safe and not super-annoying (moderately annoying welcome), 

If you come to Las Vegas, I will happily ciimb with you. I am not particularly annoying, and do not discriminate on the basis of sex. :)

Matt Himmelstein wrote: I wish my wife and daughter would.....see that  (they can) be involved in these sports and still meet the ideals of feminine beauty that society instilled in them long before I met them. Yes, they can crush routes without developing arms and shoulders that they associate with male athletes.

Actually, the fact that at 59, the backs of my arms are firm, can possibly be attributed to taking up climbing at the tender age of 47. Climbing tends to keep the female anatomy rather toned, a plus for those who might take society's ideals of feminine beauty seriously.

Russ Keane wrote: Women are tired of being gawked at and flirted with.

I'm not.

cassondra long wrote:

If you come to Las Vegas, I will happily ciimb with you. I am not particularly annoying, and do not discriminate on the basis of sex. :)

Sounds like a match made in heaven. I haven't been to Red Rock in a while. Perhaps I am due a trip. I will send you my info and current travel schedule. If we are in the same area, let's climb! 

Mason Stone wrote: Lena Chita, and others,

What is your view on women in the military, specifically, Infantry, Rangers, Special Forces or SEALS? Should these continue to be men only? Are they activities comparable to climbing where anyone can participate? 

There are similarities, and differences between climbing and military. 

Similarities:
-when people think of an abstract “climber” or a “marine” they picture someone very strong, mentally tough, motivated, etc. 
— both the military (overall, not specific branches) and climbing community have fewer female participants (MUCH fewer in the military, or specific sub-branches then in climbing)

Differences:
-military is a JOB. And as such, comes with specific job requirements. Must be able to run while carrying X pounds, etc.
 -climbing is a leisure activity, one that anyone can enjoy, even if they do not have the physical qualities that would allow them to become an elite athlete. 

So, what do I personally think about women in active combat in elite forces? I think women should be allowed in, assuming that they can perform all aspects of the job. Yes, this would realistically mean that very few women can be Navy SEALS. But some have the physical ability and mental toughness, and should be allowed to, if they want to. 

But this has nothing to do with climbing. And with encouraging women to participate in climbing.  

Kalli Schumacher wrote:So yeah, you're right, it sucks to not be able to go to an event and learn from/be inspired from a bunch of badass women solely because of your sex.

I'd love, though, for you and anyone else who is still mad about these events to take a second and listen to the women who attend and really try to understand why they go and what they get out of it.  I can't speak for all women. For me personally, it is incredibly tiresome to climb with men all the time.  

From what they tell me, the experiences I listed above are significant enough to dissuade them from coming back.  They feel discouraged when a man who started climbing exactly when they did is far outpacing them because of how their bodies are built (because for the average, men and women do have different bodies). It's embarrassing to struggle in front of these men on "easy" problems. It's frustrating for them to be given un-solicited beta that is never in a million years going to work for them.  

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I hear what you’re saying, but again must point out that while you have the right to climb with whomever you prefer climbing with, a gym does not have the legal right to disallow entry to a climbing clinic on the basis of gender. They host plenty of safe space climbing nights at gyms all over the city every week. This goes a step further and crosses a line. They NEVER host “How to Train” clinics, or really anything beyond gym-to-crag and Intro to Lead clinics. If they did, I would be much less salty about a day of clinics from which I am barred on the basis of my gender (though I would still consider it a discriminatory legal violation).

I’m sorry to hear that women have such issues with my gender that they would be soured on climbing as a result, but I don’t think that makes “no men allowed” any more acceptable. I will also add that there are, of course, women at the gym who climb much better than me, and utilize different beta than me. They are capable of flashing my projects, and I don’t let that embarrass or frustrate me. Also, there are lots of hyper-masculine douchebag meatheads with whom I would rather not associate. I just don’t talk to them and don’t climb with them.

Say, hypothetically, someone were uncomfortable with a certain race (maybe due to prejudices instilled by their community or family, perhaps due to traumatic experience(s) with a member of said race). Whatever the reason, they are more comfortable congregating and climbing with members of their own race. Would it be ok to host safe space events to accommodate their feelings as well?

Your questions are the crux of a legal battle in Colorado, and the length of the ongoing battle proves that there are no easy answers.

(Some companies have been sued for refusing service.  The conpanies lost in court, then won at the Colorado Supreme Court.  But now local governments are now suing them.)

Jim Turner wrote: Your questions are the crux of a legal battle in Colorado, and the length of the ongoing battle proves that there are no easy answers.

(Some companies have been sued for refusing service.  The conpanies lost in court, then won at the Colorado Supreme Court.  But now local governments are now suing them.)

Ah yes, the great transgender cake debate. Conflicts like that are what fuel people's desire for safe spaces, which then violate the very anti-discrimination laws they championed in a different context. A legal and logical snafu indeed.

Lena chita wrote: 
Assuming you are genuinely asking, it is very likely that the same professional athletes are teaching other clinics elsewhere, and they are all-gender-inclusive. Because most climbing fests, and most climbing clinics are. 

They are not. Touchstone rarely, if ever, holds any intermediate-advanced climbing technique or training focused clinics, nonetheless with top professionals. That's a big part of my disappointment. This is a rare opportunity having all of these experienced climbers at our gym!

Dude, you don’t want to go to the women-specific clinics at the women’s climbing fest. There is nothing for you there. Just like you don’t want to go to prenatal yoga. Or the 65-and-over water aerobics. 

I don't see "How to Train," "Productive Bouldering," "Sessioning," or "Cerebral Climbing" as particularly gender-specific topics. Granted, by excluding men, they are de facto women-specific, but I truly believe these courses would be just as viable in a co-ed context. Even if the focus were primarily from the female perspective, I'm sure I could glean more than a little bit from the clinics as a male. I listen to some training for climbing podcasts which feature both men and women, and manage to address both audiences simultaneously.

And for what it's worth, I have attended many water aerobics classes with my 67-year-old mother (shout out Elizabeth Taylor Aquatic Center). Though we do slightly modified versions of the same exercises, we both get a good workout and benefit from the same instruction in a mixed group setting. I am the only man who ever attends the class, but it hasn't been an issue.

caughtinside wrote:

I find this both sad and hilarious at the same time.  It also makes me think maybe I have been climbing too long, because I don't recognize it any more.  Get off mah lawn!

All 4 of those classes sound sort of worthless.  Sessioning? WTF is that?

Description from the website: Looking for great advice in a relaxed setting? Come session with Anna (Liina Laitinen), where she'll go through warm up routines, climbing techniques, and training tips. Whether you're looking for advice on your gym proj or just want a fun and productive bouldering sesh with one of the world's strongest climbers, this is the clinic for you!

True, I likely wouldn't drop $65 on that one, but forgive me if I'm eager for a little training advice from someone as qualified as Lisa Rands. She is a professional coach and I would like to think that she'll provide some valuable info for $100.

There is also a Climbing Photography Clinic, which doesn't interest me personally, but seems even less gender-specific than the aforementioned clinics.

Again, MP is limiting my responses, but I would like to speak to Tim Stitch's accusations of "mansplaining". I never claimed to speak for any women or their feelings. There are plenty of women on here and they are expressing their feelings clearly and openly. I am merely trying to share my own feelings on the matter, and don't really appreciate being mocked for it. You don't have to agree with me, but please don't dismiss alternate points of view on the matter.

Sam, do you know any female climbers?
You could always pay for her to go and make her wear a go-pro? 

Sam Cieply wrote:

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I hear what you’re saying, but again must point out that while you have the right to climb with whomever you prefer climbing with, a gym does not have the legal right to disallow entry to a climbing clinic on the basis of gender. They host plenty of safe space climbing nights at gyms all over the city every week. This goes a step further and crosses a line. They NEVER host “How to Train” clinics, or really anything beyond gym-to-crag and Intro to Lead clinics. If they did, I would be much less salty about a day of clinics from which I am barred on the basis of my gender (though I would still consider it a discriminatory legal violation).

I’m sorry to hear that women have such issues with my gender that they would be soured on climbing as a result, but I don’t think that makes “no men allowed” any more acceptable. I will also add that there are, of course, women at the gym who climb much better than me, and utilize different beta than me. They are capable of flashing my projects, and I don’t let that embarrass or frustrate me. Also, there are lots of hyper-masculine douchebag meatheads with whom I would rather not associate. I just don’t talk to them and don’t climb with them.

Say, hypothetically, someone were uncomfortable with a certain race (maybe due to prejudices instilled by their community or family, perhaps due to traumatic experience(s) with a member of said race). Whatever the reason, they are more comfortable congregating and climbing with members of their own race. Would it be ok to host safe space events to accommodate their feelings as well?

I think I'm talking about hypothetical women's clinic/festivals and you specifically yours.  I'm curious how your gym responded to your request to host general clinics? Because yes, I suppose if this is the only clinic of this type offered the legality would be interesting. 

I'm also not saying men don't experience these things.  I'm very conscious at the gym about how I interact with people because I'm aware of how it can come off to men and women alike.  I'm just saying that on the average, women are more likely to be affected by our current hyper-masculine culture.  Your gym might be different than mine and it might be harder to see the gender disparity.  Take one step outside and I think that shifts. Of the parties I met this summer either on routes or at high base camps, very few were women, even fewer were POC.  

I think your hypothetical exists and I guess it comes down to where we as a society are at.  I'm sort of aware of the POC community in climbing and recently I've seen multiple meet ups/clinics etc. aimed at POC (most recent was something like "Color the Crag"). Didn't look into them so I'm not sure if non-POC are allowed to attend.  But I haven't really seen that being met with much opposition; generally people are like cool that seems like a nice idea.  Now imagine if that situation was reversed and was a meet up for just non-POC and the media shit-storm that would be met with.  

Same with that cake court case. I think there were a lot of people who were upset by the ruling.  But let's say the baker was black and being asked to decorate a cake for members of the Klan.  Would there be the outrage at a ruling in favor of the baker? Probably not.  

I guess my point is these meet ups for whatever marginalized groups are seen as acceptable simply because the target audience doesn't occupy the position of power and privilege and the clinics are an attempt to shift that.  And I'm not sure that's really a bad thing?

Again, I'm speaking to the general and it's unfortunate your gym doesn't do any general clinics.

Attn all White Male Butthurt: The painful loss of White Male Privilege is Equality. This means you also get to feel the butthurt of being excluded because they just aren't into your BS.

Bummer, I know.

So many men mansplaining to other men how the womens be feeling on here.

Keep it up, as it never gets old, dudes.

Briggs Lazalde wrote: Few months ago I paid my monthly fee for the gym. I walked around the corner and they said "whoa man, women's night til 7 now. You can use the bouldering wall" what mainly rubbed me wrong was I paid and in writing it said I had that time to climb. They said it just went into effect and they'd update the website...I coulda played technicalities but when I walked around the corner to the boulder wall and saw 2 girls on the rope routes and the rest of the wall was all free I said fuck this and walked out. Try n push for safe spaces but at the expense of someones privledges based on what's in their pants is stupid. Came back one more time and they explained that girls want a safe space where guys arent looking at their butts.......I said " you guys know me and how I support and inspire other climbers esspecially new people, and you wanna throw me into that category?" Never been back. Check if the problems you're trying to solve are creating more. Nice attempt at some form of higher morality but fail....

They closed off part of the gym for women only? That was a trend in regular fitness clubs in 90s I believe, anyone remember that?

Briggs Lazalde wrote: Few months ago I paid my monthly fee for the gym. I walked around the corner and they said "whoa man, women's night til 7 now. You can use the bouldering wall" what mainly rubbed me wrong was I paid and in writing it said I had that time to climb. They said it just went into effect and they'd update the website...I coulda played technicalities but when I walked around the corner to the boulder wall and saw 2 girls on the rope routes and the rest of the wall was all free I said fuck this and walked out. Try n push for safe spaces but at the expense of someones privledges based on what's in their pants is stupid. Came back one more time and they explained that girls want a safe space where guys arent looking at their butts.......I said " you guys know me and how I support and inspire other climbers esspecially new people, and you wanna throw me into that category?" Never been back. Check if the problems you're trying to solve are creating more. Nice attempt at some form of higher morality but fail....

Equality is not a linear thing, the pendulum swings back and forth. Loss of privilege means you too have to deal with "unfair".

Now you know how millions of women may have felt for centuries when they were told they couldn't because they were women.

Sam Cieply wrote:
Again, MP is limiting my responses, but I would like to speak to Tim Stitch's accusations of "mansplaining". I never claimed to speak for any women or their feelings. There are plenty of women on here and they are expressing their feelings clearly and openly. I am merely trying to share my own feelings on the matter, and don't really appreciate being mocked for it. You don't have to agree with me, but please don't dismiss alternate points of view on the matter.

I'm sure I speak for others when I say that it's hard to take you seriously when you tell us you go to water aerobics classes with your mother. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just giving you a point of view. After that I kind of started to think you're a troll. 

Sam Cieply wrote:
Say, hypothetically, someone were uncomfortable with a certain race (maybe due to prejudices instilled by their community or family, perhaps due to traumatic experience(s) with a member of said race). Whatever the reason, they are more comfortable congregating and climbing with members of their own race. Would it be ok to host safe space events to accommodate their feelings as well?

If it is phrased or intended as a "Filipino Climbing Night" or "Latino Climbing Night" I have no problem with it. If they want to get together and share common experiences as they socialize and find similar people with similar life experiences thats great. All the power to them. 

If its phrased as a "No Mexicans Allowed Climbing Night" it sets a different tone and specifically excludes one race. Totally different.