Bugaboo's questions.

Thinking of heading to the bugaboos in a week or so.  Will probably hit Pigeon spire and The Kain on bugaboo spire.  I've got a bunch of glacier experience but the guy I'm going with doesnt.  Is the crevasse danger enough to rope up for?  

Also wondering if micro spikes would cut it for the approach or if I would need crampons?

Conditions can change rapidly at this time of year. As of 10 days ago there was mininal crevasse danger on the way to Pigeon and you'd have been okay without crampons. But I don't know how much longer the snow cover will last on the upper part of the Bugaboo-Snowpatch col. Once it's down to bare ice you'll want real crampons, not microspikes.

Gotcha. Aluminum strap on crampons and approach shoes good or does it get steep enough that I want boots and steel?

Al strap-ons and approach shoes should be fine.  It will be very stepped out so you won't be kicking front points, you just want the aggressiveness of actual crampons.  The shoes being water proof is probably a bigger deal as it gets real slushy in the afternoons.  

I wouldn't rope up, we went late July last year and never thought to rope up on the glaciers.  The few crevasses could be seen from a mile away and it was super easy to walk around them.  I would definitely recommend an ice axe though.  The col gets steep (with regards to hiking) and having that third point is very nice.  We saw people go with just shoes all the way to S Howser tower w/ just shoes but most people had light weight crampons and an ice axe.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114622996/solo-glacier-hikingscrambling-in-the-bugaboos#ForumMessage-114775851

You're ok w/o roping up on the glacier until you're really not. The terrain between bugaboo spire and pigeon spire is heavily crevassed.

Seems like conditions have deteriorated in the last two weeks. See mountainconditions.com/repo….

Phil Lauffen wrote: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114622996/solo-glacier-hikingscrambling-in-the-bugaboos#ForumMessage-114775851

You're ok w/o roping up on the glacier until you're really not. The terrain between bugaboo spire and pigeon spire is heavily crevassed.

This would be my sentiment as well.  I see Phil linked to my post above.  FYI, the first crevasse punch-through I witnessed was near the South Howser, so not too surprising a location, the other was very near the base of Snowpatch on the Vowell Glacier.  That location was a bit of a surprise to me, definitely within 200 feet of the wall.  The one by South Howser was not readily apparent on the surface. 

My take is that there are lots of climbers now in the Bugaboos and it seems many will cross one or more glaciers unroped.  I liken it to the safety in numbers syndrome that afflicts back country skiers in avalanche terrain.  Just because he made it doesn't mean you will.  I will still rope up even to get to the base of the col as that terrain is also glacier, though surely less risky.  The level of effort to do so is minimal, and the low-angle terrain doesn't demand much of your partner to arrest you.  I have fallen into a crevasse and having a rope bring you to a stop is somewhat comforting.

Google image for Vowell Glacier:

That's the view from Pigeon.  Lots of crevasses that somewhat parallel the normal trail but also in places cross it.  This photo may mislead you into thinking you can see them all, and unfortunately for this discussion the climber seems to be traveling solo.

Here's the view in the opposite direction.  A lot better snow cover but the hazards are still apparent.

I went there 2016 and 2017, I brought ice axe and crampon (grivel air tech) both times and I was happy to have them. For footwear, La Sportiva Trango Cube type of shoes will serve you better, they are not that heavier then average approach shoes. If you are planning on doing Kain and Pigeon route you can stash them some place in beginning point of the route. Bugaboo is the magical place, have a wonderful time.

Cubes could be a good idea. Would I have any reason to have approach shoes on either of these two routes then?

Haven't been but I have been doing some research TX4 Mid GTX + a full strap-on crampon set could set you up pretty well I think. Again conditions depending. Not sure there is much benefit over a Trango Cube type boot. They probably climb a little bit better. You might want to pair it with a gaiter to prevent snow ingress.

I am excitedly watching this thread to prep for a hopeful trip next summer :)

wisam wrote: Cubes could be a good idea. Would I have any reason to have approach shoes on either of these two routes then?

If you're going in mid/late August you'll appreciate the benefits of a stiff, lightweight mountaineering boot like the Trango Cube or Scarpa Zodiac Tech. The upper part of the Bugaboo-Snowpatch col will almost certainly be down to bare ice by then. Front-pointing with a relatively soft approach shoe isn't much fun under those conditions. (An approach shoe could be a reasonable choice earlier in the season when there's good snow cover). Later in the season it may also be safer to use the Bugaboo glacier and/or the Snowpatch-Pigeon rappels instead of the Bugaboo-Snowpatch col, but that involves a fair amount of glacier travel and crevasse crossings.

If you're bringing lightweight mountaineering boots there isn't any need to bring approach shoes as well.

You wouldn't need to have approach shoes on Pigeon route. On Kain's route though your feet might get tired when you coming back down with climbing shoes.
I changed from wearing climbing shoes to cube when we were descending from NE ridge via Kain's route. As you know Bugaboo is the alpine environment, your feet will get wet with cragging approach shoes. 

wisam wrote: Cubes could be a good idea. Would I have any reason to have approach shoes on either of these two routes then?

Depends on what you are comfortable with in boots. I climbed both routes in Scarpa Triolets (with steel crampons for the glacier stuff)  and I def don't climb hard. Both routes are fairly scrambley with some short sections that are spicey in boots. Have a blast!

so with the standard bugaboo snow patch col being out for the the season, wondering how much more complex the alternative approach to the west ridge of pigeon would be.  From what I understand the glacier travel is "a bit more complex"  The other guy on the team doest have glacier expierience so wondering if the terrain is complex enough we should consider a different route?  

Your best information will come from people who're up there when you arrive, but FWIW when we there from Jul 22-25 we didn't encounter significant crevasses on the lower section of the Bugaboo glacier (the part between Son of Snowpatch and the Snowpatch-Pigeon Col). However, crevasses were already starting to open up on the upper section (the part between the the Snowpatch-Pigeon Col and the toe of Pigeon W Ridge). So if you're worried about your partner's glacier travel experience you might want to avoid the upper section.

Depending on conditions, you might be able to use the Bugaboo-Snowpatch col on the way up if you get to the top before it starts to bake in the sun, then use the Snowpatch-Pigeon rappels and the lower Bugaboo glacier on the way down. But if the Bugaboo-Snowpatch col is completely out of condition and crevasses have started to open up on the lower Bugaboo glacier then you'll be severely restricted in your choice of routes.

Gotcha, thanks!  I'm assuming given that both the west ridge and Kain route involve a fair bit of 4th class that a single 60M rope is fine for descents or would something longer or having twins get us down any faster if we had bad weather or someting?

also for anyone who has been there in the last few weeks would one picket for each of us be a total waste for rescue purposes on the glacier?  Not sure if most of the remaining snow is only a few inches deep or if there is much that would take a picket right now

wisam wrote: Gotcha, thanks!  I'm assuming given that both the west ridge and Kain route involve a fair bit of 4th class that a single 60M rope is fine for descents or would something longer or having twins get us down any faster if we had bad weather or someting?

Was there last week, one rope is definitely fine. There is only one rap (maybe 2?) on the west ridge - we soloed but both raps were very short, one at the beginning and one at the end. 

For the kain Route (done as descent of NE Ridge) a single rope is also sufficient. There is a fair amount of scrambling/traversing between raps so I can’t see how two ropes would make it any faster. 
Regarding the picket, we did not rope up on the glaciers, but things were definitely starting to melt out pretty quick, so I think just using your axe for a t slot is probably sufficient but YMMV 

Anyone just got back and can provide an update of the conditions? I'm especially interested in the state of the BS-Col, and rockfall potential. Also info on the lower Bugaboo glacier appreciated. Trying to figure out if a trip is even worth it at this point.

Condition report from a week ago, and it's been hot since then.  Regional fire danger is high and air quality is low.  There is talk of backcountry closures in the Kootenays though i am not sure if that will include the bugs.


https://www.mountainconditions.com/reports/melting-col-and-opening-cracks

EDIT - sorry, just realised this MCR was linked upthread.  

And yes, I meant *recent* -- not the report from a week ago that I can find online myself. I read the report; it looked bad, I wondered how much worse it has gotten as glacier conditions can change really rapidly with this heat.

So if someone who got back from the Bugs yesterday or today, or is seeing this on Tuesday or Wednesday can respond with first-hand info that would be great. Thanks!