New and Experienced Climbers over 50

I'm reaching out again with an embarrassing amount of questions. My business suddenly takes me back to So. Cal next week... and on Friday-Sun, back to Joshua Tree for a last hurrah this season.  I thought I was through for the season there (and lining up climbing here in Truckee for the summer).
I'm looking at all the climbs I could now choose from, including some on Hemingway... (what about the Flake?)... which I would only do on toprope.  An on-line class yesterday called toproping 'not real climbing'. How, and when, does one transition to leading?  Personally... I am enjoying so many climbs and the sense of safety to learn things I would have been fearful to try without the safety net... I'm starting to feel strong, and get that sense of balance outdoors--learning cracks and slabs.  But maybe it's time to put on the Big Girl shoes and let go of the toprope?
   
At the gym yesterday, I realized how much a novice I still am.  A very difficult 10b felt like floundering to me--I made it to the top after pushing off the wall several times, in a full sweat, and barely.  The gym policy is to teach lead climbing (indoors) when you can 'climb a comfortable 10c)'. Ryan says best to wait until I am in the 11's.  So that likely will never happen outdoors!  

How do you make that transition, safely, from toproping to lead climbing?  What level of climbing skill, outdoors, tells you it's time to move to lead?  

Lori Milas wrote: I'm reaching out again with an embarrassing amount of questions. My business suddenly takes me back to So. Cal next week... and on Friday-Sun, back to Joshua Tree for a last hurrah this season.  I thought I was through for the season there (and lining up climbing here in Truckee for the summer).
I'm looking at all the climbs I could now choose from, including some on Hemingway... (what about the Flake?)... which I would only do on toprope.  An on-line class yesterday called toproping 'not real climbing'. How, and when, does one transition to leading?  Personally... I am enjoying so many climbs and the sense of safety to learn things I would never do solo... I'm starting to feel strong, and get that sense of balance outdoors--learning cracks and slabs.  But maybe it's time to put on the Big Girl shoes and let go of the toprope?
   
At the gym yesterday, I realized how much a novice I still am.  A very difficult 10b felt like floundering to me--I made it to the top after pushing off the wall several times, in a full sweat, and barely.  The gym policy is to teach lead climbing (indoors) when you can 'climb a comfortable 10c)'. Ryan says best to wait until I am in the 11's.  So that likely will never happen outdoors!  

How do you make that transition, safely, from toproping to lead climbing?  What level of climbing skill, outdoors, tells you it's time to move to lead?  

Leading in the gym is pretty darn safe. You should already be leading in the gym if you can climb 5.9. 

Leading outside is a whole different story. Even sport climbing outside you need to know what you are doing once you complete a climb to either be lowered or rap the route. How to clean a route safely if it is overhanging etc.. The anchor set up may just be a couple of mussy hooks and all you need to do is clip in and get lowered, but more often than not it will be a couple of bolts and a chain. You need to know how to clip in and thread the anchor safely.  You shouldn't be learning that from someone here, but a hands on mentor. 

I hate being the old guy in the group, buuuut, BITD there weren't any gyms or online lessons. You HAD to learn from someone else that knew a lot more than you. I still feel it is the best way to progress.

Climb with someone who is competent and ask them to let you know how to stay safe. And then just do it.

I agree with Buck. I think the lead test in my gym is a 5.8 or 5.9.

There were no gyms BITD day when I started climbing with my husband, who was only slightly more experienced, but stronger and braver, than I. We read Freedom of the Hills, he took a one-day class in the Tetons and we sort of muddled through with friends and each other. I learned how to place pro mostly by removing it. I think I lead a few 5.2 or 5.3 climbs when I could barely get up a 5.6 or 7. Just my opinion, but I think it's crazy to wait until you can climb 10s and 11s before you start to lead. Well really that's about your comfort level, but I wouldn't  state it as a rule or guideline.

You might try pinkpointing a climb -- maybe one you've already done -- with pre-placed draws and anchor as a starting point. But, as Buck says, be comfortable clipping in and threading anchors. An awful lot of accidents happen from the tops of climbs. 

Lori, my thoughts on your question about leading:

#1. If you're still struggling with 10a-b climbs in the gym I would advise to just keep focused on improving your skills and strength to get to that "comfortable 10c" level that your gym wants before starting to lead there. It won't take you that much longer and is really a question of more advanced technique, not strength. Then, take their lead class.

#2. I, like Buck above, learned to lead outdoors by simply DOING it. That means trad leading and, frankly, there's nothing stopping you from beginning to learn those skills right now. Next time you go to J-Tree and climb with your guide ask him or her to lead and let you second rather than just setting up top ropes. You'll learn a lot from following a good leader and looking at how they place gear and rig things. Then find some climbs that you are confident you can easily climb and lead them yourself. That's how we all did it at one point. IMO a lot of people overthink this and psych themselves out. There's a particular climb at Indian Cove that I think is a really awesome first lead and practice lead for beginners. Look up "Short Crack" at the group sites in Indian Cove.

#3. Don't listen to anyone who says top roping isn't "real climbing." Real climbing is whatever you want it to be. You're in this for fun, not to impress anyone, right?

Señor Arroz wrote: Lori, my thoughts on your question about leading:

#1. If you're still struggling with 10a-b climbs in the gym I would advise to just keep focused on improving your skills and strength to get to that "comfortable 10c" level that your gym wants before starting to lead there. It won't take you that much longer and is really a question of more advanced technique, not strength. Then, take their lead class.

#2. I, like Buck above, learned to lead outdoors by simply DOING it. That means trad leading and, frankly, there's nothing stopping you from beginning to learn those skills right now. Next time you go to J-Tree and climb with your guide ask him or her to lead and let you second rather than just setting up top ropes. You'll learn a lot from following a good leader and looking at how they place gear and rig things. Then find some climbs that you are confident you can easily climb and lead them yourself. That's how we all did it at one point. IMO a lot of people overthink this and psych themselves out. There's a particular climb at Indian Cove that I think is a really awesome first lead and practice lead for beginners. Look up "Short Crack" at the group sites in Indian Cove.

#3. Don't listen to anyone who says top roping isn't "real climbing." Real climbing is whatever you want it to be. You're in this for fun, not to impress anyone, right?

#3 is very important.  Those who claim this are elitist and are not worth your time.

#2 - just keep in mind that if you enter the trad world, make sure you put some money away for gear.  Cams are not cheap.

#1 - Every sport have special techniques that allow you to become better.  Do take your time and learn these techniques and don't worry about the grade.

Welcome to the addiction!

Alan Emery wrote:

#3. Don't listen to anyone who says top roping isn't "real climbing." Real climbing is whatever you want it to be. You're in this for fun, not to impress anyone, right?

 

#3 is very important.  Those who claim this are elitist and are not worth your time.

I agree that top roping is real climbing and important for climbers of all abilities.  I do it regularly for a variety of reasons.  

However, I will add that leading a climb delivers more personal satisfaction because of the greater challenge, and I know that the majority of climbers think that too.

John Byrnes wrote: #3. Don't listen to anyone who says top roping isn't "real climbing." Real climbing is whatever you want it to be. You're in this for fun, not to impress anyone, right?
I agree that top roping is real climbing and important for climbers of all abilities.  I do it regularly for a variety of reasons.  

However, I will add that leading a climb delivers more personal satisfaction because of the greater challenge, and I know that the majority of climbers think that too.

Oh, I agree entirely that being on the "sharp end" brings a level of clarity and intensity that isn't there otherwise. But if being on top rope isn't "real" then that begs the question of what we're doing every time we 2nd a pitch and are on top rope while belayed from above.

Leading is awesome. And I encourage people to go for it. 

Thank you so much for your generous and supportive responses!  What a wonderful community climbers are.  

I feel like a kid in a candy store most of the time, researching all the possible 'next climbs'... putting sticky notes on the ones that call to me.  This has been so much fun.  I promised myself initially I would leave ego aside, and just do my best--I have everything working against me, except love of the climbs... so I guess grades and ticks only mean so much.

Senor... thank you for the advice on indoor lead climbing.  Some days I sail up a 10b.  Other days, different climbs or holds, a mess.  Thank you for that vote of confidence that I'll learn.  Yesterday, after that tough 10b, Ryan suggested we take the last half hour on the hydraulic wall and practice footwork on the small holds.  It was the pivot that I didn't have right... moving that big toe so that I could manage some of the shifting required on that climb.  'Technique'.  Thank you.  

It occurs to me that I've never fallen on an outdoor climb, never even stumbled.  It is perhaps time to start the new journey of leading.  Nelson is a safe and incredible guide, and now a good friend... I will suggest that Indian Cove climb.  Maybe we can spend next weekend learning some basics.  

Wendy said: "be comfortable clipping in and threading anchors. An awful lot of accidents happen from the tops of climbs."  The only time I have freaked out... panicked, was at the top of a long climb, when I was off belay, and just standing there... and wanted down, right now!  Perhaps I can work with Nelson on clipping in, and working with anchors.  Thanks, Wendy.

Nothing would please me more than to start acquiring some pro--maybe next weekend while I'm there.  Ya'll have been doing this for years... I don't know if you get the same thrill.  But thank you so much for your wisdom and encouragement.  I really appreciate it.  

PS. As for the 'on line' course... I was sort of shocked.  I think it's sort of a primer for climbing at our local quarry... but 45 minutes of Skyped instruction, and all I could think was REALLY?  Now you'd turn us loose on lead climbs?  

 

Lori Milas wrote: 
It occurs to me that I've never fallen on an outdoor climb, never even stumbled.  It is perhaps time to start the new journey of leading.  Nelson is a safe and incredible guide, and now a good friend... I will suggest that Indian Cove climb.  Maybe we can spend next weekend learning some basics.  

I'm sure if Nelson is a local J-tree guide he can also suggest lots of other good beginner leads. The key, IMO, is that it's something you could climb VERY EASILY on TR because your head is going to start doing really strange things when you are on lead at first. And that it's easy to protect. The reason I like the one I suggested is that it's short, fun, and has a bolted anchor right at the top.

There are also a few areas of J-tree with some bolted beginner climbs. I think it's called Outward Bound wall or something like that. He'd know. 

Not much I can add to the sound advice above........but I feel what this part of the discussion might be improved by is a good "Wizard of Oz-ing"

Lori, you may think you need a brain, and a gym lead cert, and to start "Leading outdoors" to be a "real climber"

You do not, MP proves this. There are plenty of people on here that don't have brains, and do have gym certs, and whom lead outdoors and they aren't anymore "a real climber" than you are.

So what do they have that you don't have? Their own helmets, covered in outdoor product decals. THAT is all you need to be a "real climber"

(Well that and heart, and some fortitude. Which you already seem to have. So yeah, a helmet with some stickers should do it......... ;)

John Byrnes wrote: #3. Don't listen to anyone who says top roping isn't "real climbing." Real climbing is whatever you want it to be. You're in this for fun, not to impress anyone, right?
I agree that top roping is real climbing and important for climbers of all abilities.  I do it regularly for a variety of reasons.  

However, I will add that leading a climb delivers more personal satisfaction because of the greater challenge, and I know that the majority of climbers think that too.

I agree that leading give more satisfaction, but when I am climbing with someone who climbs a lot harder than I do and TR a route I know I could not lead, I get a lot of satisfaction just climbing the climb.  Have you noticed how we begin TRing routes, jump into leading as much as we can, then end up TRing again when we get older?  I have, and without disgrace.  

John Barritt wrote: Not much I can add to the sound advice above........but I feel what this part of the discussion might be improved by is a good "Wizard of Oz-ing"

Lori, you may think you need a brain, and a gym lead cert, and to start "Leading outdoors" to be a "real climber"

You do not, MP proves this. There are plenty of people on here that don't have brains, and do have gym certs, and whom lead outdoors and they aren't anymore "a real climber" than you are.

So what do they have that you don't have? Their own helmets, covered in outdoor product decals. THAT is all you need to be a "real climber"

(Well that and heart, and some fortitude. Which you already seem to have. So yeah, a helmet with some stickers should do it......... ;)

John!  If only I'd known!  I know just the decals to put on my climbing helmet... I'll order them this week, and then off I go into the lead-climbing world at Joshua Tree.  And... an added bonus, with these we won't need formal introductions.  If you see a woman with a helmet with these product decals, you'll know it's me.    

Alan Emery wrote:

I agree that leading give more satisfaction, but when I am climbing with someone who climbs a lot harder than I do and TR a route I know I could not lead, I get a lot of satisfaction just climbing the climb.  Have you noticed how we begin TRing routes, jump into leading as much as we can, then end up TRing again when we get older?  I have, and without disgrace.  

This is probably not an either/or question.  I was trying to decide whether I would rather climb an exhilarating climb next week on top rope, or stay low to the ground on very easy grades, and begin to learn trad.  My guess is, everyone here does some of each?  You wouldn't pass up an incredible climb just because you couldn't lead it would you?  (or would you?)  

How hot is it in J-Tree this time of year?  I was there in April and it was scorching hot by about 9 AM.

Lori Milas wrote:

This is probably not an either/or question.  I was trying to decide whether I would rather climb an exhilarating climb next week on top rope, or stay low to the ground on very easy grades, and begin to learn trad.  My guess is, everyone here does some of each?  You wouldn't pass up an incredible climb just because you couldn't lead it would you?  (or would you?)  

You're missing the other option. FOLLOW incredible climbs while your guide leads. Pay close attention to all the details of how he/she leads. Then lead something really easy. Don't just  set up TR. 

Buck Rio wrote: How hot is it in J-Tree this time of year?  I was there in April and it was scorching hot by about 9 AM.

Bumping up against 100 degrees I imagine. 

Same as OK right now. But here the humidity has been a bear.

Shaded routes early in the day would be doable but pretty brutal by 10am. Or late afternoon when temps start to drop. Definitely best to haul a lot of water and gun for short approaches.to shady walls.

"I feel like a kid in a candy store..."  After sampling the candy you get a sugar rush!  Top roping is good for you, it's like eating vegetables.  Leading is good as it requires focus, at least most of the time.  I like going to different candy stores to sample what they have to offer.

It is true that leading provides certain kinds of satisfactions that some people find central to the activity.  But it is also true that many of those people come from a time and circumstances when leading was an essential ingredient in climbing.  That is much less true nowadays.  Lots of top-roping is available, and there are excellent guides for almost every multipitch venue of interest.  People who would probably never have become climbers in the old days are drawn to and can participate in the various modern versions of the sport without leading.

Of course, leading is as essential as ever for bigger routes.  But make no mistake: the pleasures and satisfactions of leading are inextricably linked to the fact that leading is risky and the leader is using their climbing skills and gear management skills to reduce those risks, which can never be totally eliminated.  If that floats your boat, then fine, but don't for a moment think that in today's climbing environment, there is some obligation to progress to leading or that you are in some way diminished if you don't do it.

Many of the old folks here, myself included, read a book or two and just went out and did it, and now recommend the same approach.  When it works, it is a wonderful experience.  When it doesn’t work, you end up with injuries,  possibly permanently incapacitating ones, or dead.  The thing is, as the sport has evolved,  approaches to learning to lead have developed too.  It isn’t necessary to follow the path of the Elders, no matter how nostalgic they may be about it.  Remember that in this case you are getting advice from a selected group that survived its beginnings, and contrary opinions are not available.

I think the urge to lead, like the urge to climb, has to come from a deep and utterly personal passion, a passion strong enough to accept the consequences.  You mustn't be influenced by the pressures of other people's passions if it isn't your passion.  The dummy who claims top-roping "isn't climbing" and the enthusiast who says "leading is awesome, you gotta try it" both have to be totally ignored.  This is a decision that has to come from you, and it should be an informed decision, made with eyes wide open about both the joys and the sorrows.

The three pillars of leading are climbing skills, mental control, and gear skills.  Following only really helps with the climbing skills, so there is a lot more to learn, and to start out you should  strive not to put yourself in situation in which the three pillars are simultaneously critical.  In fact, try to only really engage one of the three on any one lead---to the extent that you can anticipate the demands.

1. Climbing skills: this is almost obvious---follow lots of outdoor climbs (indoor won't work).  I say "almost obvious" because you should begin to follow with a leading mentality, which means stepping down and regrouping before things go to hell and not blindly lunging for holds in the hope of wresting success from the jaws of defeat.  Be aware that if you have been doing a lot of gym climbing and/or top-roping, then you have probably trained yourself  to solve all problems by moving up.  The idea of keeping something in reserve for a possible retreat, the concept of having reached an endurance "half-way point" requiring a decision about whether to push on or not, these are not central aspects of the gym/top-roping experience.  Furthermore, placing gear involves maintaining a single position while arranging the protection.  Finding the least-tiring and most stable static position is not something usually practiced while top-roping, and in sport climbing the decision has been made for you by the person who placed the bolts and in any case only involves clipping gear.

Isolating climbing skills:  the route should be very well-protected and one you have practiced on a top rope.

2. Mental control.   This is so intertwined with personal psychology that I don't know how to say anything about developing it.  There are people who think they do know something about this and they have written books about it.  What I can say here is about diminishing the role of mental control, and that is by eliminating the kinds of uncertainty that require it.  So I would say that your first leads should be routes you've already practiced on a top rope.  You know the moves, you know where you will place protection and how you'll sling it if that is an issue, and you can concentrate on execution.  Chances  are you'll still have to manage fear (make it work for you), but the mental demands are still going to be much reduced.   Another approach is the “mock lead,” in which you perform all the actions of a leader but with an upper belay to back you up.

Isolating mental control: don’t.  It will come with experience.  To help that process along, review your actions after each lead.  Did you fail to place critical gear because the position was tenuous or uncomfortable?  Did you let yourself get “stampeded” into moves that required more thought? Did you develop tunnel vision and miss obvious holds and/or placements?

3. Gear skills.  This is a life-long pursuit, not only to fully master traditional usage, but also to keep up with new developments.  Skill at this is utterly separate from climbing skill.  There are excellent climbers with mediocre gear skills, and mediocre climbers with excellent gear skills.  Moreover, there is enough uncertainly in even the most basic ingredients to keep the internet message boards humming at full steam.  I think the input of an experienced person is important here.  

Isolating gear skills:  in this case, you can eliminate climbing altogether and do some “ground school” exercises in which, at ground level, you place gear, bounce test it, and remove it.  This should probably be step 1.  After this comes top-rope aiding, in which you climb a pitch (or part of one) placing gear and using aid technique, again bounce-testing each piece.  You then lower off and reascend, cleaning the gear.  This is better than ground school for two reasons: (1) You learn something about improvised aid, which is an essential technique for getting out of jams and dealing with unexpected bad weather.  (2) The climb forces you to adapt your placements; you aren’t walking back and forth on the ground looking for spots to place gear.  You may have already used the “correct” piece and be forced to make do with something else, for example.  Assuming the experienced person is available, you should simul-rap your newly-aided route together so that you can get commentary on each placement.

There’s a lot more to be said—which is why there are books on the subject!  There used to be very little information, now there is more than anyone can process.  Begin building a small library, and then dip in to the texts here and there when time and inclination allow it.

Señor Arroz wrote:

You're missing the other option. FOLLOW incredible climbs while your guide leads. Pay close attention to all the details of how he/she leads. Then lead something really easy. Don't just to set up TR. 

I thought somebody said that already, but that's exactly what should happen. 

I took a guy climbing one time that ended up climbing with me for 15 years. He pestered me to let him lead every outing for the first year.

I'd say sure, then we'd get set up and I'd say " this one's pretty serious, I better lead it" By the end of that year I said "ok, you can lead" 

I didn't lead anything the whole next year. By the end of that year it was on to multi-pitch and we could swap leads without a thought.

He didn't realize he was getting good at climbing and learning good placement by cleaning all those pitches that year... ;)

Lori Milas wrote:

 

;)