adjustable wall training question for moderate trad

I have an adjustable climbing wall in the garage - about 4ft x 10ft.  For a while I had it at about 30 or 35 degrees overhung.  I would typically work boulder problems and 4x4's on it.  I primarily climb multi-pitch trad and I don't boulder.  While the initial training was definitely helping my strength, endurance, and stamina I decided to change it up.

I reduced the angle from 35 overhung to 20 degrees overhung.  That is about as close to vertical as I can make it in my space and I felt for my skill level and goals it would give me a better opportunity to work stamina and footwork.  So in my first session at that angle I did 1m 30s on the wall climbing up and downclimbing then taking a 10-15 second break.  Then do it again for 1m 30s.  So a 3min round with a 10-15 second break in the middle.  Then take a 3 min break.  Do that 4 times concentrating on extended arms, quiet feet, sticking feet and not moving, not over gripping, etc.  It felt like a nice balance of stamina, strength, and technique.  I was reasonably pumped afterwards.  I then follow it up with either the Metolius beginner hangboard workout (I've been doing that for a while) or a repeater hangboard routine on reasonably large holds.

Last season I found my climbing indoors to greatly help my climbing outdoors but I'm looking to maximize what I have to meet my goals outdoors - which is really moderate trad - so I would say my main things to work are endurance, stamina, and technique.  Granted - I still need to be strong enough to pull an overhang at the gunks, etc.

So any input on what I am currently doing or how I could best/better use the training gear I have?  I suppose arc'ing might be really good for me and the best idea...but there is just no way I can stay on my wall for 10-20 mins.  Even at a 20 degree angle overhung its challenging after 60-120 seconds of climbing and downclimbing.  I suspect at the level I currently climb at it doesn't matter much what I do - it will all help as long as have a component of technique and I don't get hurt - but suggestions are welcome.

Read this. (The Rock Climber's Training Manual) Great place to start understanding what the bod needs to perform. Yes, there is more, different, extended, opinioned, better, (ad naseum) information out there, but for what you are climbing, start here.

Arc'ing really will help you at the level you are climbing at. It is the starting point of so many workouts, might be worth considering making the wall vert? (And on a 4x10 wall it's BORING!) 

Arc and hangboard. Got me from 11 to 12. And back again.

Muscrat wrote:

Read this. (The Rock Climber's Training Manual) Great place to start understanding what the bod needs to perform. Yes, there is more, different, extended, opinioned, better, (ad naseum) information out there, but for what you are climbing, start here.

Arc'ing really will help you at the level you are climbing at. It is the starting point of so many workouts, might be worth considering making the wall vert? (And on a 4x10 wall it's BORING!) 

Arc and hangboard. Got me from 11 to 12. And back again.

yep - thank you-  I have it and read it.  :)  and it definitely seemed like arcing was really called for - I'm just not sure I can get the wall to vert in the space I have.  So I guess I was trying to get the closest thing I could, with the tools and space I have.  And yeah arcing on a 4ft x 10ft wall is boring.  But I'll do whatever to get better - if there is value.  Unfortunately due to family and life getting to the climbing gym itself is kind of hard.  I climb outside all day once a week.  Maybe if I cut a hole in the ceiling I can get the wall vertical :)

Not sure if it's really scientific, but for trad-training, I sometimes like to do static/isometric holds mid move in order to simulate placing gear. One arm rows, lock off drills, etc. Hope this helps!!

i suppose i could arc on my hangboard at least sometimes http://rockprodigytraining.proboards.com/thread/565/arc-alternative-hangboard and work technique and strength on my wall.  if i recall from reading the RCTM one of the Anderson's did this while stationed overseas

I do "ARC-like" workouts on my homewall, which is 8x11 ft at a fixed 30-degree angle, so I think I got pretty good at working with what I have. I say "ARC-like", because I can't (yet...) do 30 mins of continuous climbing on a 30-degree wall even on the biggest jugs I have. The key to ARCing is to have your forearms continuously loaded at an intensity that doesn't get you desperately pumped. Based on that principle, I climb on my 30-degree wall for 1.5 mins, then do 1 min of ARC'ing on my hangboard (like what Mike Anderson did when he was deployed overseas), then get back on my wall for 1.5 mins, and repeat. I'll do this between 10 to 12 reps (25 to 30 mins) with no rest. I aim to slowly reduce the time I spend ARC'ing on the hangboard.

Another thing you can try is to set a rest on your wall instead of ARC on the hangboard. Since you have it at 20-degrees, it's possible that you can rest and shake out instead of ARC on a hangboard. Experiment and see for yourself.

Also, I don't downclimb when I'm ARC'ing. I found that downclimbing pump me out faster, and once you learned what you can learn from downclimbing (paying attention to your feet), I don't think continuing with that practice has any benefits. So I just climb to the top, jump down, and get back on the wall as fast as I can. I downclimb when I'm training near my anaerobic threshold when I do want to get hopelessly pumped.

aikibujin wrote:

I do "ARC-like" workouts on my homewall, which is 8x11 ft at a fixed 30-degree angle, so I think I got pretty good at working with what I have. I say "ARC-like", because I can't (yet...) do 30 mins of continuous climbing on a 30-degree wall even on the biggest jugs I have. The key to ARCing is to have your forearms continuously loaded at an intensity that doesn't get you desperately pumped. Based on that principle, I climb on my 30-degree wall for 1.5 mins, then do 1 min of ARC'ing on my hangboard (like what Mike Anderson did when he was deployed overseas), then get back on my wall for 1.5 mins, and repeat. I'll do this between 10 to 12 reps (25 to 30 mins) with no rest. I aim to slowly reduce the time I spend ARC'ing on the hangboard.

Another thing you can try is to set a rest on your wall instead of ARC on the hangboard. Since you have it at 20-degrees, it's possible that you can rest and shake out instead of ARC on a hangboard. Experiment and see for yourself.

Also, I don't downclimb when I'm ARC'ing. I found that downclimbing pump me out faster, and once you learned what you can learn from downclimbing (paying attention to your feet), I don't think continuing with that practice has any benefits. So I just climb to the top, jump down, and get back on the wall as fast as I can. I downclimb when I'm training near my anaerobic threshold when I do want to get hopelessly pumped.

this is super helpful in quite a few ways - thank you.  yes downclimbing is very tiring - a skill i need to get better at but definitely getting me pumped much faster.  thanks for your post.  going to try and work this in.

do you have an adjustable crack on it? holding a one handed handjam for 60 seconds on 20 degree wall its actually pretty hard and builds endurance and technique. 

rafael wrote:

do you have an adjustable crack on it? holding a one handed handjam for 60 seconds on 20 degree wall its actually pretty hard and builds endurance and technique. 

i don't - but at the suggestion of another friend i may build something to train cracks - thank you

Getting off your wall really diminishes the returns when it comes to ARC training. Maintaining high blood pressure throughout the session is the defining characteristic of ARCing, otherwise you are really just doing intervals. 

Build a removable kicker side leg out of a few pieces of 2x12 with some bad holds screwed on. 3 chunks between 3-4’ long built like a triangle with holds on either a side leg or the hypotenuse, the last leg gets screwed to the wall your climbing wall is mounted to.  Now as you complete each circuit around the wall you can stem over to the side wall and shake out. You want it removable for when doing limit boulders. If your wall is next to a wall you can screw on a strip of plywood and attach holds to that. 

It’s pretty easy to ARC at 20 degrees when you can get a stem rest every 15-20 moves. Stemming is very applicable to trad climbing (as is down climbing). Good luck. 

Kevin Stricker wrote:

Getting off your wall really diminishes the returns when it comes to ARC training. Maintaining high blood pressure throughout the session is the defining characteristic of ARCing, otherwise you are really just doing intervals. 

Build a removable kicker side leg out of a few pieces of 2x12 with some bad holds screwed on. 3 chunks between 3-4’ long built like a triangle with holds on either a side leg or the hypotenuse, the last leg gets screwed to the wall your climbing wall is mounted to.  Now as you complete each circuit around the wall you can stem over to the side wall and shake out. You want it removable for when doing limit boulders. If your wall is next to a wall you can screw on a strip of plywood and attach holds to that. 

It’s pretty easy to ARC at 20 degrees when you can get a stem rest every 15-20 moves. Stemming is very applicable to trad climbing (as is down climbing). Good luck. 

This. +1

Re-read the training manual on ARCing and it's benefits. 

And downclimbing is crucial. Not just on the plastic, but on the rock.

I think at the level you are climbing at that power is not what you want to train, but technique and endurance. ARC is just that. I spent 15 minutes on one 4x8 section of my home wall, just to remember what it was like. Get a shit-ton of holds, fill the space, and move around. It ain't so bad!

thank you for the 2 previous posts

Kevin Stricker wrote:

Getting off your wall really diminishes the returns when it comes to ARC training. Maintaining high blood pressure throughout the session is the defining characteristic of ARCing, otherwise you are really just doing intervals. 

Build a removable kicker side leg out of a few pieces of 2x12 with some bad holds screwed on. 3 chunks between 3-4’ long built like a triangle with holds on either a side leg or the hypotenuse, the last leg gets screwed to the wall your climbing wall is mounted to.  Now as you complete each circuit around the wall you can stem over to the side wall and shake out. You want it removable for when doing limit boulders. If your wall is next to a wall you can screw on a strip of plywood and attach holds to that. 

It’s pretty easy to ARC at 20 degrees when you can get a stem rest every 15-20 moves. Stemming is very applicable to trad climbing (as is down climbing). Good luck. 

this was very helpful - using what was already there I was able to get a stem rest when needed.  Its sort of like resting on a slightly overhanging left facing corner.  I managed to do 4x6 min rounds with a break in between rounds.  I will continue to make the first round longer and longer until I can do 1x20 min round or whatever it might be.  I can clean it up a bit and get something to stem on on the other side of the wall too, but for starters this worked and definitely got me a much more arc-like workout then I was getting before.  Thanks much for the advice.

Kevin Stricker wrote:

Getting off your wall really diminishes the returns when it comes to ARC training. Maintaining high blood pressure throughout the session is the defining characteristic of ARCing, otherwise you are really just doing intervals. 

If you are maintaining high blood pressure, you may want to speak with your doctor! :)

All jokes aside, I know what you’re getting at. The theory behind ARC’ing is that constant low intensity climbing for long duration increases blood flow to the forearms and promote capillarization. However, I’m not aware of any study that actually looks at the effect of different endurance training methods on capillarization in climbers’ forearms, so how do we know that long duration intervals with very short rests is not just as effective for capillarization? I’m skeptical with the idea that getting off the wall at all during ARCing will reduce the effectiveness of the training. If the idea is to promote blood flow to the forearms, then… I don’t know about you, but when I’m climbing with my arms over my head, my forearms feel anything but filled with blood. So it stands to reason taking very short rests periodically and dropping your arms to let them fill with blood is actually in line with the goal of ARCing.

On the point of downclimbing, I disagree with muskrat that it’s crucial. Yes, I know all about the benefit of downclimbing. It teaches new climbers to pay attention to their feet, and you can place gear/clip a bolt then downclimb to good stance to rest. All true. But I spend majority of my climbs going upwards. If I have to put a number on it, I would say I spend less than 5% of the time downclimbing anything outside. One of the biggest benefits of ARC training that people tend to under appreciate is skill practice. So why would I spend 50% of my ARC training practicing something I do less than 5% of the time? Just like any drill (like silent feet), once you learned what you can, you don’t need to do it all the time. I’d rather spend 100% of my ARC time on practicing efficient upward movement, which I would argue is a lot more crucial if your goal is to climb up a route.

aikibujin wrote: If you are maintaining high blood pressure, you may want to speak with your doctor! :)

All jokes aside, I know what you’re getting at. The theory behind ARC’ing is that constant low intensity climbing for long duration increases blood flow to the forearms and promote capillarization. However, I’m not aware of any study that actually looks at the effect of different endurance training methods on capillarization in climbers’ forearms, so how do we know that long duration intervals with very short rests is not just as effective for capillarization? I’m skeptical with the idea that getting off the wall at all during ARCing will reduce the effectiveness of the training. If the idea is to promote blood flow to the forearms, then… I don’t know about you, but when I’m climbing with my arms over my head, my forearms feel anything but filled with blood. So it stands to reason taking very short rests periodically and dropping your arms to let them fill with blood is actually in line with the goal of ARCing.

On the point of downclimbing, I disagree with muskrat that it’s crucial. Yes, I know all about the benefit of downclimbing. It teaches new climbers to pay attention to their feet, and you can place gear/clip a bolt then downclimb to good stance to rest. All true. But I spend majority of my climbs going upwards. If I have to put a number on it, I would say I spend less than 5% of the time downclimbing anything outside. One of the biggest benefits of ARC training that people tend to under appreciate is skill practice. So why would I spend 50% of my ARC training practicing something I do less than 5% of the time? Just like any drill (like silent feet), once you learned what you can, you don’t need to do it all the time. I’d rather spend 100% of my ARC time on practicing efficient upward movement, which I would argue is a lot more crucial if your goal is to climb up a route.

thanks - I did a workout your way too - not as much downclimbing, on the wall, did some stem rests, a few times i went over to the hangboard and did some arcing on that with my feet lightly placed to take some pressure off - mostly it was done just to vary the workout as I was getting bored.  I felt like I still got a very good workout.  time will tell what is more effective.  Honestly, at my level I think ANYTHING I do that increases my skill/technique, and stamina will be good.  No matter how I approach it - just being on the wall, working technique, and working out my hands and forearms will help.

But, to your point, if you've read Eric Horsts books, he talks about shaking out and de-pumping at a rest with hands above head, or heart, not hanging down.  Granted that would be while not having to grip a hold.  But it does lend some consideration to your point as well.

Either way I now have a few options for doing a more stamina, ARC'like workouts then I did before - where I was only doing bouldering 4x4 type workouts (which was effective as well really)  So this thread is very helpful.  Good discussion ;)

neils wrote:

But, to your point, if you've read Eric Horsts books, he talks about shaking out and de-pumping at a rest with hands above head, or heart, not hanging down.  Granted that would be while not having to grip a hold.  But it does lend some consideration to your point as well.

Actually, Horst doesn't advocate shaking out with hands overhead, at least not the whole time. He advocates alternating your arm between the dangling position and raised position every 5 to 10 secs, what he referred to as "g-tox":

http://trainingforclimbing.com/effectiveness-of-dangling-arm-and-g-tox-recovery-techniques/

The idea is that when your arm is overhead, you drain the blood from it, and when you dangle your arm, you fill it with blood. This "pumping" action increases the blood flow. In practice, It is actually pretty effective IF you have enough time to alternate between the two positions. Generally, I only do this at a very good stance. If I'm at a strenuous stance, I only have a few seconds per hand to shake out, then I simply drop my arm for a few seconds to let it fill with blood.

It's a pretty easy thing to experiment when you're ARC'ing. Just hold one arm above your head the whole time, and drop the other arm every couple of moves, and see if you notice any difference. In one training cycle I will spend between 7-8 hours ARC'ing (on the wall time), so I've experimented plenty.

What are you currently leading/following? If you are still at 5.6/5.8 as your profile says, and if you are dedicated enough to have your own woody that you use regularly, something else is going on that is holding you back, Gunks or no Gunks, and regardless what it is you are doing on your wall every week. Doing any sort of climbing movement every week for a couple years should have you beyond that

Brian Abram wrote: What are you currently leading/following? If you are still at 5.6/5.8 as your profile says, and if you are dedicated enough to have your own woody that you use regularly, something else is going on that is holding you back, Gunks or no Gunks, and regardless what it is you are doing on your wall every week. Doing any sort of climbing movement every week for a couple years should have you beyond that

leading 5.6 - follow 5.8.  I think the biggest thing is time on rock.  It wasn't until mid way through last season (around July) that my schedule freed up in a way that has now allowed me to get out 1 full day per week.  So my schedule is typically climb indoors/at home 2-3 days a week.  Outdoors 1 day.  Cardio/antagonist training/yoga 2-3 days per week.  1 full rest day.  I am in my third season of climbing "seriously"  I am 42.  I am 5'6" and about 190 - although I am not seriously overweight.  Most people look at me and think I am 170 at most.  I am very thick and stocky.  I know losing even 10lbs would probably help a lot - working at it.  I was injured in Oct of last year and had to take 5 months off from climbing and 3 months off from basically everything.  Started working out again around end of Jan this year.  I got the wall end of May last year and have been using it 2-3 times a week since.  Once I saw that I couldn't get to the climbing gym regularly I knew I wanted to do something at home. 

Not that it necessarily matters but I am in reasonably decent general shape - I can do 15 pullups no problem, 3 sets of 30 pushups, whatever.  I've been working out in a general sense for the past 8 years - 4-6 days per week.  That doesn't necessarily translate to climbing, but just for context.  In October last year I was making strong progress through the 6's at the Gunks, leading the classics and moving along.  At the start of season I was breaking into the 5's.  Then in October I got hurt (climbing fall) and it set me back physically and mentally.  I made a few errors in judgement that I have since learned from that I know will make me a better, safer climber overall.  So I am now back at it.  I am no rush, led a 5.5 yesterday.  But I won't lie, I am anxious to realize more of my potential and get on some cool higher grade climbs at the Gunks and elsewhere.  So I am working on both my physical, and mental game.

Had I not gotten hurt where would I be now?  Hmm..I am not sure - I suppose leading in the 6's and breaking into 7's  and following/TR 8-9?  But I also would not have learned some very valuable lessons.