Most dangerous newbie situation you've seen

What's the problem belaying directly off your harness with an ATC? I also don't get the long slings and plugging gear thing. 

Jason Kim wrote:

What's the problem belaying directly off your harness with an ATC? I also don't get the long slings and plugging gear thing.

Im guessing he means something similar to bumping cams above you on a hard offwidth, except going in direct to the pieces. 

I'm just having a hard time visualizing this scenario, on a 5.6 or whatever climb it was, in Joshua Tree. I guess if you're in Indian Creek, I can see leapfrogging a couple of personal tethers with cams as you follow, to give yourself some sort of pseudo belay (still seems kinda dumb if you're using slings).  But you said you were in Joshua Tree, and I can't think of a single climb at that grade where this system would work - certainly not for more than a few feet.  So did it take you 2 hours to reach the belay?  I presume you were limited to the gear that you had just cleaned earlier in the pitch?  I assume you know it isn't wise to take falls on slings, so were you placing these pieces in such a way that you were keeping them relatively free of slack?  How did you move upwards, and how does this keep you any safer than just switching into "solo" mode, trying your hardest not to fall on whatever shitty anchor the leader might have built?  

Jason Kim wrote:

and how does this keep you any safer than just switching into "solo" mode, trying your hardest not to fall on whatever shitty anchor the leader might have built?  

Hypothetically: Step off a cliff attached to a static sling on a piece of pro. Now step off a cliff without the sling and off belay. 

I dont think its very hard to grasp how the first concept is way better than the latter. 

Oh yeah and im from CT and have been to J-tree only a few times for probably a month of cumulative climbing and even I know there are consistent cracks there that this is possible with. You're from CA have you even been to J-tree? How about one example... Double Cross...

Shawn Fettig wrote:

So I guess maybe not tripping on acid and rock climbing when your a newb.

'Okay, important safety tip, thanks Egon!'

Re Kiri's comment above...I remember, BITD, we (noobs, and even more experienced climbers) would sometimes put a locker on the back of our swami belt and clip in to the anchor from behind. That way, you could sit on the ledge and either body belay (active rope on top of the anchor line behind you) or use a Stitcht plate on the front of your swami to belay someone up. A direct line from the anchor, through you, to the climber, no? Not the most comfortable if someone were to fall and hang--you'd get pinched inside your swami. Probably not something I would put on the "Best Practices" list.

Saw a guy drop his rope on heave ho! at sand rock:

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106102019/heave-ho

I moved on and let someone else save the idiot.

Echo Cliffs in Southern California, young guy with a gaggle of giggling girls (how they managed the hike to the crag is a mystery to me), unwrapping a brand new rope from the plastic bag it came in (with tags and zip ties still in place) at the bottom of Easy Street (bunch of easy, two-pitch climbs), while casually mentioning (after I prompted his/their intentions for the day to determine if my partner and I needed to bail from this impending disaster) how much fun he had last week, on his first ever climbing trip to Echo Cliffs, and can’t wait to show his friends (who are all girls?). My partner and I left before he finished tearing the plastic off the rope. Didn’t hear any helicopter all day tho, so they must’ve got out fine. 

Michael Diep wrote:

so basically you saw nothing dangerous....

Someone who has climbed only once teaching people who have never climbed sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. 

taking blind advice from MP forums without doing your own research

Shawn Fettig wrote:

Back in 92 , I was 16 . My buddies and I were climbing around castle park up in the Santa Cruz mountains. We were all tripping acid having a good time not climbing anything you wouldn't climb unroped. All of us but the guy who drove. Next thing we hear a scrapping and thud. Our buddy took a 50 ft fall . Talk about instant sobriety check. After being life flight to Sanford he only had a concussion and broken wrist and leg. So I guess maybe not tripping on acid and rock climbing when your a newb.

Driving in the Santa Cruz Mountains on acid is also probably not recommended as a safe practice but it's also fairly common.

David Vogel wrote:

* OK for clarification, she was belaying off her harness with an ATC and as soon as she was in sight I was looking for and how she was belaying,  The rope wasn’t even being bent around the device ( usually where the teeth grooves are located).  So she was just pulling down on the rope, basically it looks like a rope Going up and through a Biner,  and then going  back straight down towards the ground ( like an upside down “ U “ shape. No bend, no friction to really catch anything. So a fall would just spin the rope wildly through to device until the follower decks and dies. There’s a chance the device will catch, but it’s no guarantee. Kinda like someone belaying from the base and just pulling the slack through going up, parallel with the lead rope, no bend in the rope around the belts device for that secure catch in the event of a fall. 

*The plugging the gear with slings Girth hitched to the belay loop thing you asked about.  I was in a situation where I knew in all likelihood the anchor the climber built was shit (based off seeing her pro placements while on lead). So to protect myself I had two slings, you place a piece of pro attached to the sling above you, then place another below you. Now you have 2 pieces in, you climb up, take the bottom piece out, with the above piece still placed, then unplug the lower piece and put it above the the piece that’s still in place. You “ladder pro” yourself. Always one piece in. It’s annoying but better than the situation the climber had put me in at the time. Longer slings just give more reach and makes it easier. 

Wait...I’m confused.  How/why was she pulling DOWN?  When belaying from above off your harness, shouldn’t she have been pulling UP?

Ted Pinson wrote:

Wait...I’m confused.  How/why was she pulling DOWN?  When belaying from above off your harness, shouldn’t she have been pulling UP?

That would be pulling down on the brake side, up on the climber's side. Facing out toward the climber.

Wei-Li wrote:

Echo Cliffs in Southern California, young guy with a gaggle of giggling girls (how they managed the hike to the crag is a mystery to me), unwrapping a brand new rope from the plastic bag it came in (with tags and zip ties still in place) at the bottom of Easy Street (bunch of easy, two-pitch climbs), while casually mentioning (after I prompted his/their intentions for the day to determine if my partner and I needed to bail from this impending disaster) how much fun he had last week, on his first ever climbing trip to Echo Cliffs, and can’t wait to show his friends (who are all girls?). My partner and I left before he finished tearing the plastic off the rope. Didn’t hear any helicopter all day tho, so they must’ve got out fine. 

Wait,   A Gaggle of Giggling Girls in SoCal, never heard of such a thing.

I’m sure they were giggling because his rope was thin and too small.

edit: never mind, I get it.  Jesus Christ.  She must have had the whole device upside down so that she was pulling down, hence the whole “upside down U” thing.

Ted Pinson wrote:

The weight of the climber pulls their end down.  The belayer takes the slack up and locks off by bending the rope UP and towards their body, the opposite of what they would do on a slingshot toprope or lead belay.  At what point is the belayer pulling down?

Ted, if you take another look at the title of this thread all should become clear....

David Vogel wrote:

Anchor was total shit. I saw her placementswhile following and knew her anchor would be... no anchor at all. 

So instead of climbing completely unprotected I girth hitched a double shoulder length sling also with a longer second sling to belay loop. I carried extra gear with me when I realized at the end of the day how timid she was about leading an easy route (she claimed to lead Trad 10 years beforehand). And she didn’t want to lead morning through afternoon... I knew many things were off about climbing with this person. So I racked my nuts and few cams and slings in just in case and followed.

You said you assume I know it’s wise to not fall on slings... I was in a situation where it was either to plug my own Gear with slings attached to my harness or risk free soloing a route that I wasn’t planning on soloing.

Didn’t take 2 hours. I just plugged Gear quickly and the slings were long (7’ and 3.5’ feet approximately). Pitch was around 90ft. Only plugged myself up about 30 ft. The last 20ft to anchor was lower angle and super easy, no plugging. 

I Would much rather fall on my girth hitched slings on cams and nuts than on the anchor the leader built. The anchor was the worst anchor I’ve ever seen.

You ask how I moved upward? Did the way I explain it not make sense? I can try to explain it Differently if that helps you grasp the concept. 

Btw- what’s your most dangerous newbie situation you’ve been in Jason? I want to hear! :)

David sounds like you're saying these things because she wasn't "into" you. Tell us the real story.

I once followed a kid up the first climb of the day and he also had an upside down ATC on the anchor, not in guide mode. I'm surprised how common this is. 

One time during multiple raps I realized I had accidentally clipped into my gear loop. From then on I girth hitch slings to my harness instead of clipping to my belay loop. 

One time I followed a pitch and cloved in. When I took off to lead I realized there was about 100 feet of rope between me and the anchor. I think it had something to do with the lack of oxygen at altitude. Nothing to say about that one except don't do it again!

Whenever I used to use a Prussik to backup my rappel, I would do so by extending my ATC out from my harness using a sling girth hitched to my soft points, and then connect the prussik from my back gear loop to the brake hand.  If I didn’t extend my ATC the prussik would run  into the ATC and not work.  On one particular occasion I was using a sling that was longer than I wanted, so I doubled it over before girth hitching.  However, when I hooked my ATC’s locker to the sling, I made the mistake of only hooking it to one of the sections of sling (since it was doubled over it should’ve been clipped into two sections.  I did the whole rap this way and luckily the friction kept it from coming undone.  Had it come undone though, I would’ve been held only by my prussik attached to my gear loop...