"Projecting" on Gear

I'll add the obvious but not much credited: a belayer who is stoked for you to do well!

Best, Helen

Back to your original post David, I climb at the Gunks a ton. Once I started breaking into 10s, I found it really helpful to think of my climbing as onsight, flash, and redpoint goals. 

Redpointing, which is what I think you really mean by "projecting," is a super rewarding process. Still, it did take me several seasons of leading on gear to reach a point where I had all the skills to judge and manage the risks of working a redpoint on gear. 

I think a lot of folks at the Gunks are focused only on onsighting. Onsight goals look different, because you're building volume and experience on other routes to just nail your main goal in one try. After all, it is good old school style to do something well on the first try.

I think a really pragmatic way to approach this is to gain experience goal setting. Project on sport trips for a few seasons until you're super bomber at leading gunks stuff. At that stage, you'll start bringing your trad climbing grade closer to your sport climbing grade and the process will be more clear. You'll be able to read routes, judge fall potential, and choose projects that challenge you just enough.

After all, climbing can get you pretty hurt :P

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I don't think so... not many people are leading on gear on routes beyond their immediate abilities, AFAIK.

I can't speak for the gunks, but in Utah people lead on gear above their immediate abilities all the time. I fell yesterday on a .2 backed up by a purple TCU. It was on a route that is in my realm of possibility, but still hasn't happened. One section is especially low percentage. 

Basic routine goes like this:

First time up the route you bring bring tons of gear. You take if you need to. You place tons of gear, even while hanging. You safely figure out the sequence. Once the rope is up, give it a TR to focus on the moves. If the gear is tricky, TR with the rack and settle on the crucial placements. Come back fresh and give it hell. 

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I don't think so... not many people are leading on gear on routes beyond their immediate abilities, AFAIK.

Most climbers I climbed with did just that routinely.  Of course, there was no gym monkey training, so going for it was all one had.  Amazing how the "activity" of climbing, or the language that describes it, has changed.  

Beean wrote:

You already got your answers in page 1, why can't we have this thread now? This discussion will benefit the entire climbing community. 

Actually, this discussion benefits no one, except egotistical people that want their "expertise" to be heard. Climbing is what you make it. 

As far as to the OP, place good gear, and you shouldn't have to worry about projecting on it. I've definitely projected plenty of limit routes on trad gear, and whipped dozens of time on gear. 

https://vimeo.com/147990527

Pretty cool perspective on bringing the sport climbing mindset to a route with gear protection. Like Micah just said, it's whatever you make of it.

Micah Klesick wrote:

Actually, this discussion benefits no one, except egotistical people that want their "expertise" to be heard. Climbing is what you make it. 

As far as to the OP, place good gear, and you shouldn't have to worry about projecting on it. I've definitely projected plenty of limit routes on trad gear, and whipped dozens of time on gear. 

Well there's only so many ways to keep parroting 'it's fine just don't place shit gear' so we may as well fill this thread up with something else, preferably something entertaining.

JSH wrote:

It's all fine until someone posts about taking a 'practice sprad whipper'. 

Victory whip on gear...yeah!

David Hous wrote:

I guess you could say that I "project" trad climbs, but it is more along the lines of shakily placing a piece and yelling "take!" rather than taking big-air whippers. If I am trad climbing it is usually in Eldo and the routes often have distinct short cruxes, I like to double-up on pro before the crux if there are good placements. I'm not a strong climber by any means, so a project for me falls in the 5.11 range. I've long wanted to work on Disappearing Act as a project, it seems like the gear is pretty good and the crux out of deck range. Hmm...Sendtember is just starting...

This might be more my style. :)

Late to the party, but plenty of people, including myself, project on gear at the Gunks. 

But it's dependent on the climb - no one is projecting Madame G's or High E or something like that. You show up to those routes when they're within your ability, because generally the easier the route is, the less fall-anywhere it is. It's not a hard and fast rule, but 5.10 seems to be the point where people are trying routes more than once at the Gunks.

And ultimately, the harder the route gets, the more it'll resemble sport climbing. Dogging tactics, stick clipping, etc. 

In the meantime, TR the harder stuff. I would not recommend 'pushing yourself' on sub 5.10 terrain at the Gunks, because of the real likelihood of getting injured. And anyway, at that skill level, onsighting and accruing volume is more important for your climbing growth.

ChrisHau wrote:

In the meantime, TR the harder stuff. I would not recommend 'pushing yourself' on sub 5.10 terrain at the Gunks, because of the real likelihood of getting injured.

5.11 is also a problematic grade in the Gunks for pushing.

David (OP),

What is your motivation for wanting to push yourself at this moment? It seems like you are looking for advice on how to rush past an integral part of climbing, which is to safely accrue a myriad of experiences and a certain degree of confidence which you can then draw upon when the time is right. Nobody in the whole world cares what your projecting except for yourself, but I'm sure a lot of people in the world care about you being safe.

My advice for how to push yourself in trad climbing: go climb for fun, climb a lot, climb in different places, climb with different people.  Then you'll be able to make decisions on whether or not to project a trad climb for yourself.

ViperScale wrote:

I don't know how often people really truly project on gear at their limit. Most of the at the limit projecting gear isn't really climbing on gear because you see people with gear pre-clipped in order to the rope so they just take it off the harness and know the spot where it will go already. Imo if you already know what pieces of gear you are placing and where it goes you are no longer really climbing on gear.

They really need a new term for this because if you know all the gear placements before you start climbing it than it is just like a slightly different version of sport because it is like knowing where all the bolts will be before you start.

This is just so far off from truth. Heady redpoints are still very much trad climbing. Redpointing can easily be as scary as onsighting because you know what you're signing up for. What if there is no gear on a route but you know all the moves and redpoint it? Is that sport climbing too? Non sense.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

So I'm fairly familiar with the idea of "projecting" in sport climbing where you take on a climb that is challenging for you, challenging enough that you fall off a lot. I've done this a bit in the gym and I've found it's the best way for me to push grades there. For example, recently climbing a lot of 5.10b (which I can flash most of the time in the gym) doesn't seem to push me toward 5.11 much, but struggling on a 5.11a until I got it has gotten me to the point where I'm getting most 5.10d in 1 or 2 tries now (in the gym).

I'm interested in projecting outdoors, but the crag that is most available to me is The Gunks, and there isn't any sport climbing there. I have some routes in mind that are overhung and/or have lots of pro, but the thought of falling on gear that much puts me off a bit.

Obviously people project on gear, i.e. Caldwell/Jorgeson on the Dawn Wall. So it can be done, but either non-elite climbers don't do this as often, or they don't talk about it where I see.

So what's the story here? Do any of you have experiences working projects and falling on gear to share? Is there anything I should be concerned about (beyond the obvioius?). Or is this something that should be reserved for the pros?

David - I'll talk about my experience at Vedauwoo. It does seem like there are some places at the Gunks (Yellow Wall?) that would be better for projecting. I try to take the sport climbing mentality to projecting and apply that to trad climbing. For example: I don't try and onsight the route if I know it's something I'd like to project. Sure, you could possibly send the route on that OS attempt, but I'd rather suss it out and climb it well then climb it on an OS and climb like shit. 

If you're not 100% OK falling on gear (I am not, esp. if it is small) then I pick routes that have good gear. This is easy in Vedauwoo since they are vertical cracks, maybe harder at the Gunks. But I pick a route that has good gear but difficult so I am not pushing 2 different aspects of the climb at once. I also journal the exact beta I use after each attempt in as much detail as I can remember. I typically will try a lead attempt then set up a TR to suss out difficult spots in that process of projecting. 

Since I work a M-F 8-5 I also try and suss out a route well then train for that route in the gym. Or train weaknesses in the gym, rather. If I notice I am scared of falling while projecting a trad route then I take a practice fall, similar to what I do in sport climbing. I'm not going to take a practice fall on a 00 C3, but you get the idea. It's easy to make the mental aspect of projecting the most difficult part when doing a gear route. I guess those all may sound obvious but it's been my approach. 

ViperScale wrote:

I don't know how often people really truly project on gear at their limit. Most of the at the limit projecting gear isn't really climbing on gear because you see people with gear pre-clipped in order to the rope so they just take it off the harness and know the spot where it will go already. Imo if you already know what pieces of gear you are placing and where it goes you are no longer really climbing on gear.

They really need a new term for this because if you know all the gear placements before you start climbing it than it is just like a slightly different version of sport because it is like knowing where all the bolts will be before you start.

Bolts don't make a climb a sport climb (see run-out slab climbing); using gear doesn't make it a trad climb. What you're describing is simply a sport climb on gear.

kendallt wrote:

I'm pretty sure we already have definitions hashed out for this.

bolts = sport climbing 

gear = trad climbing

gear, knowing placements in advance but still placing gear = redpoint trad climb

gear, but preplaced = pinkpoint trad climb.

A run out, bolted slab climb is still a sport climb. (even if it's X rated)

Yes, we do, and run-out bolted slab is NOT a sport climb. As merely one famous example, no climber in the world considers the Bachar/Yerian a sport climb. Wolfgang Gulich once broke his leg on that route after a 40' fall. A sport climb is defined by it's relative lower risk and focus on movement, not by protection. The only X rated "sport" climbs are ones with terribly botched bolt locations. 

Rob D. wrote:

There are plenty of people in the gunks every weekend that are leading and falling on gear.  It's not happening on 5.5, but there are certainly people that are pushing their grades up there and taking falls.  I had a strong season a few back and was falling my way up almost every weekend (and most of the summer).  The reality is most of 10+ and beyond has pretty well known gear beta for the cruxes so if you know it's near your limit, you get the gear beta and just go for it.  I feel like I know a ton of people that "projected" The Sting last year, and even without ever having given it a lead, I know the gear beta just from everyone else. 

Not going to add anything new but want to echo a few thoughts here and elsewhere. The Gunks is a weird place to be a 5.11 climber because there is a pretty drastic change in pro between 80% of 10s and 80% of 11s. I think there are a couple approaches to pushing oneself there. Some say you should go through lower grades working through various protection ratings until you're comfortable on 10R or whatever. I don't know about that. I TRd the Sting and eventually did it on lead before sending any 11s. I have a number of other 12-13 projects with good to poor gear, and would rather headpoint routes like this than build my onsight grade. They're just very different skill sets. 

My m.o. at the Gunks is to TR a route until I can link it in 2-3 sections and know the gear, then start leading, assuming I will not be falling in the danger zones. If the climbing is hard and unsafe, I basically brownpoint before trying to lead. The latter is my current approach for Gravitys Rainbow, which has some 11R climbing on it. 

Generally speaking, to each their own. It's clear from this thread that there are a lot of differnet ways of experiencing the Gunks and pushing yourself there. Shouldn't give a shit if other people disagree with your tactics. 

The above being said, I think the best way to get past 5.10 in the Gunks is to climb with people who are pushing harder grades. On that note, shoot me or Rob D or a lot of folks who have replied a PM and I (and I'm sure others) would love to get out and start taking whips with you

climbing friend,

"reserved for the pros?!?" the laughing it is out loud!!!

the many peoplez do not do it or talk about it becasue they are terrified of life and have not the true boldness in their hearts

the first rule of trad projecting is don't talk about trad projecting

the gear (placed properly in solid rock) works - TAKE DA WHIPPA!!!!!!!!