"Projecting" on Gear


AndrewArroz · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 10

Go to about 1:55 in this video to see some great projecting on gear. I know they're "elite" climbers but I found this very inspiring in a weird way because they're just throwing themselves at this thing and falling all over the place. And having fun. https://www.epictv.com/media/podcast/matt-segal-fingerlocks-to-victory-on-stingray-513d-%7C-hardliners-ep-4/601487

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
kendallt wrote:

I'm pretty sure we already have definitions hashed out for this.

bolts = sport climbing 

gear = trad climbing

gear, knowing placements in advance but still placing gear = redpoint trad climb

gear, but preplaced = pinkpoint trad climb.

A run out, bolted slab climb is still a sport climb. (even if it's X rated)

Yes, we do, and run-out bolted slab is NOT a sport climb. As merely one famous example, no climber in the world considers the Bachar/Yerian a sport climb. Wolfgang Gulich once broke his leg on that route after a 40' fall. A sport climb is defined by it's relative lower risk and focus on movement, not by protection. The only X rated "sport" climbs are ones with terribly botched bolt locations. 

Jon Frisby · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 100
Rob D. wrote:

There are plenty of people in the gunks every weekend that are leading and falling on gear.  It's not happening on 5.5, but there are certainly people that are pushing their grades up there and taking falls.  I had a strong season a few back and was falling my way up almost every weekend (and most of the summer).  The reality is most of 10+ and beyond has pretty well known gear beta for the cruxes so if you know it's near your limit, you get the gear beta and just go for it.  I feel like I know a ton of people that "projected" The Sting last year, and even without ever having given it a lead, I know the gear beta just from everyone else. 

Not going to add anything new but want to echo a few thoughts here and elsewhere. The Gunks is a weird place to be a 5.11 climber because there is a pretty drastic change in pro between 80% of 10s and 80% of 11s. I think there are a couple approaches to pushing oneself there. Some say you should go through lower grades working through various protection ratings until you're comfortable on 10R or whatever. I don't know about that. I TRd the Sting and eventually did it on lead before sending any 11s. I have a number of other 12-13 projects with good to poor gear, and would rather headpoint routes like this than build my onsight grade. They're just very different skill sets. 

My m.o. at the Gunks is to TR a route until I can link it in 2-3 sections and know the gear, then start leading, assuming I will not be falling in the danger zones. If the climbing is hard and unsafe, I basically brownpoint before trying to lead. The latter is my current approach for Gravitys Rainbow, which has some 11R climbing on it. 

Generally speaking, to each their own. It's clear from this thread that there are a lot of differnet ways of experiencing the Gunks and pushing yourself there. Shouldn't give a shit if other people disagree with your tactics. 

Jon Frisby · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 100

The above being said, I think the best way to get past 5.10 in the Gunks is to climb with people who are pushing harder grades. On that note, shoot me or Rob D or a lot of folks who have replied a PM and I (and I'm sure others) would love to get out and start taking whips with you

Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

climbing friend,

"reserved for the pros?!?" the laughing it is out loud!!!

the many peoplez do not do it or talk about it becasue they are terrified of life and have not the true boldness in their hearts

the first rule of trad projecting is don't talk about trad projecting

the gear (placed properly in solid rock) works - TAKE DA WHIPPA!!!!!!!!

rafael · · Berkeley, CA · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 50
Beean wrote:

You already got your answers in page 1, why can't we have this thread now? This discussion will benefit the entire climbing community. 

YES  THE INTERNET NEEDS MUCH MORE ARGUING ABOUT SEMANTICS THIS ONE HAS THE ADDED BENEFIT OF ALSO INCLDING JUDGMENTAL IDEAS OF OTHERS YESSS WE CLAIM THIS THREAD FOR THE GOOD OF THE INTERNET I FOR ONE THINK GEAR IS NOT FOR FALLING ON BUT TO PROCLAIM ONES SUPERIORITY OVER SPORT CLIMBERS AND THUS I REFUSE TO EVEN CALL PROJECTING ON GEAR CLIMBING ITS ACTUALLY POSUERING YES

kendallt · · Tahoe · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 56
Marc801 C wrote:

Yes, we do, and run-out bolted slab is NOT a sport climb. As merely one famous example, no climber in the world considers the Bachar/Yerian a sport climb. Wolfgang Gulich once broke his leg on that route after a 40' fall. A sport climb is defined by it's relative lower risk and focus on movement, not by protection. The only X rated "sport" climbs are ones with terribly botched bolt locations. 

I'd say no climber in the world considers the Bachar/Yerian a sport climb because there's gear placements on it.

If a climb is bolted, has no gear placements, and is X rated: what would you call it?

The whole point of R/X ratings is to identify the danger/runouts, it doesn't change the style of climbing.

rockhard · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 55
David Kerkeslager wrote:

I don't think so... not many people are leading on gear on routes beyond their immediate abilities, AFAIK.

Maybe your not but how do you think other people progress?

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
kendallt wrote:

I'd say no climber in the world considers the Bachar/Yerian a sport climb because there's gear placements on it.

They don't consider it a sport climb because there are several places where a fall will likely result in injury or death.

If a climb is bolted, has no gear placements, and is X rated: what would you call it?

A bolt protected climb, or, if you must, traditionally bolted (ground up, at stances, often by hand drilling). All the routes on GPA and the vast majority in Tuolumne are not considered sport climbs, even if protected entirely with bolts. This was before there was the term trad climbing, which only became necessary when sport climbing came about.

The whole point of R/X ratings is to identify the danger/runouts, it doesn't change the style of climbing.

Right. And any sport climbs bolted so that they are R or X are incorrectly bolted and not sport climbs. There is no such thing as an X sport route.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 290

This is getting pretty silly. You're either trad climbing or you're not. Trad climbing isn't sport climbing, isn't headpointing, isn't pre-placing pro, and sure as fuck isn't hanging and resting your way up a route. Look, it ain't rocket science - you start at the bottom, climb, place gear and either get up the line or you fall. If you fall then you didn't do it onsight. So what do we call it when you fall, come down, and give it goes #2-XXX before you get it without falling? Well, last time I checked we call that trad climbing. No other needed distinctions or designations. No colors, no points, no bullshit - you're either just climbing it or you're not. So it's kind of hard to imagine what 'projecting' would actually mean in that context other than you didn't get it onsight and you went back a bunch of times before you got it. What mysterious number of goes is required before it gets redefined from simple obsession to a more formalize 'project' would hard to pin down at best. 

King Tut · · Citrus Heights · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 420
Healyje wrote:

This is getting pretty silly. You're either trad climbing or you're not. Trad climbing isn't sport climbing, isn't headpointing, isn't pre-placing pro, and sure as fuck isn't hanging and resting your way up a route. Look, it ain't rocket science - you start at the bottom, climb, place gear and either get up the line or you fall. If you fall then you didn't do it onsight. So what do we call it when you fall, come down, and have goes #2-XXX before you get it without falling? Well, last time I checked we call that trad climbing. No other needed distinctions or designations. No colors, no points, no bullshit - you're either just climbing it or you're not. So it's kind of hard to imagine what 'projecting' would actually mean in that context other than you didn't get it onsight and you went back a bunch of times before you got it. What mysterious number of goes is required before it gets redefined from simple obsession to a more formalize 'project' would hard to pin down at best. 

Yes, but....plenty of hard crack climbs are "projected" just like sport climbs, but on gear. Even the most famous like Phoenix or even Crimson Cringe get "projected" all the time.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 290

Again, whether you're giving the route a second or a hundred and ninetieth go you're still just trad climbing even if it feels like a 'project'. If by projecting it you mean you're headpointing it, pre-placing pro, or dogging up it then you may be "projecting" it I suppose, but whatever you call it you're no longer trad climbing.

Artem B · · Vancouver, BC · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 0
kendallt wrote:

I'm pretty sure we already have definitions hashed out for this.

bolts = sport climbing 

gear = trad climbing

gear, knowing placements in advance but still placing gear = redpoint trad climb

gear, but preplaced = pinkpoint trad climb.

A run out, bolted slab climb is still a sport climb. (even if it's X rated)

I'll agree to disagree =D

Marc801 wrote:

There is no such thing as an X sport route.

This is what I learned as well up in Squamish. While there is a small gray-zone in very early sport climbs; modern sport climbing is when you climb as physically hard as you can and are well protected. If there is an element of danger or uncertainty about the protection inherient to the climb, it's traditional imho.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 290

kendallt wrote:

I'm pretty sure we already have definitions hashed out for this. [ Clearly not... ]

bolts = sport climbing There are plenty of bolted trad climbs ]

gear = trad climbing [ It was never just about the gear vs bolts, it was and is about tactics, i.e. no dogging in trad (I know, unthinkable right?) ]

gear, knowing placements in advance but still placing gear = redpoint trad climb [ There are no colors or points in trad climbing; you onsighted or you didn't ]

gear, but preplaced = pinkpoint trad climb. [ There is definitely no pre-placed pro in trad climbing ]

A run out, bolted slab climb is still a sport climb. (even if it's X rated) [ Sorry, those are all old trad climbs ]

rockhard · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 55
Healyje wrote:

It was never just about the gear vs bolts, it was and is about tactics, i.e. no dogging in trad (I know, unthinkable right?) ]

Dude your living in the past

kendallt · · Tahoe · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 56

::me getting down from a bolted line at my local crag::

Oh man, that felt a little run out! I think I might have been trad climbing!

But I'm just trolling now...

Pinkpointing is still trad climbing, albeit shitty style.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 290
rockhard wrote:

Dude your living in the past

Bolts were a part of the debate, but the real contention was over the tactics.

The reality isn't that I'm living in the past, it's that you're informed by a dilute meme which no longer conveys either the history or the real distinctions between the two.

Kees van der Heiden · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 40

So, if I understand you correctly Healyje, then rehearsing the route and the gear placements on TR, before the ultimate lead attempt on gear, is changing the style from trad to sport too?

Stuff like Echo Wall on Ben Nevis is not trad in your book, because of the style?

will ar · · San Antonio, TX · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 250
rockhard wrote:

Dude your living in the past

The interesting thing about language is that words are often defined more by their usage than what a dictionary says and usage can change relatively quickly over time. Look at any climbing media, go to any crag and talk to other climbers, or flip through any guidebook and you'll see that the term "trad" is typically applied to lead climbing protected by gear as opposed to the historical definition of ground up onsight climbing. In my experience I would say that "sport" has still not reached the point of being defined only by bolts. It's still very common for someone at the crag or a guidebook description to say "don't be fooled by those bolts, it's not a sport climb." 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,175
Healyje wrote:

Again, whether you're giving the route a second or a hundred and ninetieth go you're still just trad climbing even if it feels like a 'project'. If by projecting it you mean you're headpointing it, pre-placing pro, or dogging up it then you may be "projecting" it I suppose, but whatever you call it you're no longer trad climbing.

Just curious, what was the problem with dogging? Was it just because it was different? Or was it simply weak sauce? 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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