"Projecting" on Gear

ViperScale wrote:

I don't know how often people really truly project on gear at their limit. Most of the at the limit projecting gear isn't really climbing on gear because you see people with gear pre-clipped in order to the rope so they just take it off the harness and know the spot where it will go already. Imo if you already know what pieces of gear you are placing and where it goes you are no longer really climbing on gear.

They really need a new term for this because if you know all the gear placements before you start climbing it than it is just like a slightly different version of sport because it is like knowing where all the bolts will be before you start.

Someone on MP told me that's called sprad climbing and he assured me that he wasn't making the term up. So that's what kids are calling it these days. 

Gunkiemike wrote:

With respect to that last point, it is unfortunate that the Gunks don't have hard vertical cracks of the sort that work so well for projecting/dogging/French freeing etc. Harvest Moon comes to mind as a rare exception.

These sorts of climbs appeal to me, not just because of the protectability, but because I'm bad at crack climbing verticals. I was looking at Harvest Moon and Sonja (with crack gloves) as potential projects, with maybe some more basic practice on Ken's Crack.

You've got the most experience with the area of anyone, it seems--any other suggestions, or strategies for getting stronger in the area? You have a few Gunks 5.11c's in your stars list, so I'd be interested to hear if you got to that level by climbing in the Gunks, and what you did.

ViperScale wrote:

Ugh, I said "projecting on gear" and not "trad projecting" hoping to avoid this inane pedantry.

Could you guys start a new thread if you want to fight about the meaning of the word "trad"? I don't care, and I'm not sure why you do.

caesar.salad wrote:

I'm pretty sure if you are placing gear, then you are climbing on gear. If you have done a route 50 times and it's a gear route, then you know where everything goes, but you are still placing gear. People say that if you know where all the gear goes on a project, then it isn't really "trad". But what if it's a 5.6 that you've done a bunch of times? Is that also sprad? Is trad only if you are trying it for the first time? What if there are a few bolts or pins mixed in? 

I just think back to that route that someone climbed repeatedly on bolts than memorized everywhere trad gear needed to be placed, preclipped everything to the rope in the right order had it ready to pull off and place... he than cut all the bolts off the route and lead it on trad so he could claim a 5.14+ FA trad lead or something... IMO that isn't trad and I would never consider his lead a true trad lead.

And yes there are tons of trad leads that I have done so many times that I no longer consider them the same as when I first lead them on trad. I know exactly where I am going to place gear and what gear I will place. Not completely memorized because I don't climb the same route every week but still you know the locations and general size of gear. It isn't the same as leading a climb into the unknown and figuring out the spots to stop and place gear as you go. You lose a ton of the adventure climbing aspect that trad normally offers and sport doesn't because you can look at the pitch and know where you will have to clip before you start.

Sprad works I guess because you aren't climbing sport but than you aren't really doing trad either.

ViperScale wrote:

It isn't the same as leading a climb into the unknown and figuring out the spots to stop and place gear as you go. You lose a ton of the adventure climbing aspect that trad normally offers and sport doesn't because you can look at the pitch and know where you will have to clip before you start.

Sprad works I guess because you aren't climbing sport but than you aren't really doing trad either.

Again, so what?

David Kerkeslager wrote:

Ugh, I said "projecting on gear" and not "trad projecting" hoping to avoid this inane pedantry.

Could you guys start a new thread if you want to fight about the meaning of the word "trad"? I don't care, and I'm not sure why you do.

You already got your answers in page 1, why can't we have this thread now? This discussion will benefit the entire climbing community. 

David Kerkeslager wrote:

These sorts of climbs appeal to me, not just because of the protectability, but because I'm bad at crack climbing verticals. I was looking at Harvest Moon and Sonja (with crack gloves) as potential projects, with maybe some more basic practice on Ken's Crack.

You've got the most experience with the area of anyone, it seems--any other suggestions, or strategies for getting stronger in the area? You have a few Gunks 5.11c's in your stars list, so I'd be interested to hear if you got to that level by climbing in the Gunks, and what you did.

I'm not sure what list you're looking at. I've never been a 5.11 leader at the Gunks. Or anywhere else!

If you want mileage on vertical cracks, go to ADKs or NH. Seriously; the Gunks is not the place for that. Body-length roofs, yea, but not cracks.

ViperScale wrote:

I just think back to that route that someone climbed repeatedly on bolts than memorized everywhere trad gear needed to be placed, preclipped everything to the rope in the right order had it ready to pull off and place... he than cut all the bolts off the route and lead it on trad so he could claim a 5.14+ FA trad lead or something... IMO that isn't trad and I would never consider his lead a true trad lead.

And yes there are tons of trad leads that I have done so many times that I no longer consider them the same as when I first lead them on trad. I know exactly where I am going to place gear and what gear I will place. Not completely memorized because I don't climb the same route every week but still you know the locations and general size of gear. It isn't the same as leading a climb into the unknown and figuring out the spots to stop and place gear as you go. You lose a ton of the adventure climbing aspect that trad normally offers and sport doesn't because you can look at the pitch and know where you will have to clip before you start.

Sprad works I guess because you aren't climbing sport but than you aren't really doing trad either.

Viper, that trad adventure is an on sight, to me, climb number one. Climbs 2-50000 are still on gear, but no longer that adventure, unless you have forgotten how it works, lol!

Again, just my opinion, but on sight or not, is about all that I think matters much. After that, it is all about working it however you choose, within reason. 

Your "FA" example is an extreme, assholey outlier, I hope. That said, anyone who is putting up new routes will choose how to do so, and that varies even for the route. I, for one, am grateful for those who keep our sport going. While I have that out in the wild, ground up, adventurous trad guy spirit, it is so far out of my abilities that it is the difference between being able to climb, or not climb at all.

Best, OLH

David Kerkeslager wrote:

So I'm fairly familiar with the idea of "projecting" in sport climbing where you take on a climb that is challenging for you, challenging enough that you fall off a lot. I've done this a bit in the gym and I've found it's the best way for me to push grades there. For example, recently climbing a lot of 5.10b (which I can flash most of the time in the gym) doesn't seem to push me toward 5.11 much, but struggling on a 5.11a until I got it has gotten me to the point where I'm getting most 5.10d in 1 or 2 tries now (in the gym).

I'm interested in projecting outdoors, but the crag that is most available to me is The Gunks, and there isn't any sport climbing there. I have some routes in mind that are overhung and/or have lots of pro, but the thought of falling on gear that much puts me off a bit.

Obviously people project on gear, i.e. Caldwell/Jorgeson on the Dawn Wall. So it can be done, but either non-elite climbers don't do this as often, or they don't talk about it where I see.

So what's the story here? Do any of you have experiences working projects and falling on gear to share? Is there anything I should be concerned about (beyond the obvioius?). Or is this something that should be reserved for the pros?

You mean like regular lead climbing on gear?  

Jon Po wrote:

Ground up projecting in the Gunks is safe enough.. Get a double rack of c3s and some RPs.. Start training harder in the gym.. Chances are that if you are falling off 10d in the cliffs at long island city you will most likely get spanked by Gunks 9+ routes.. Time in the saddle buddy.. No route is worth dying over..

Agreed.If you're headed up routes you strongly suspect you will fail on,know where the crux is and even get gear beta. You're not onsighting, may as well make it safe. Put the critical gear in well; gunks rock is crazy hard so you're not gonna break it. Good gear will hold. When the going gets tough, remind yourself this is what you planned for. Be okay with the notion of falling on the gear. There are plenty of super safe 10s at the Gunks.

Pnelson wrote:

The Gunks are a hard place to push yourself, especially into the 5.10+ and beyond range, because apart from the handful of cracks at each grade, most climbs get thinner and more challenging gear the harder they get.  Headpointing (basically projecting a gear-protected climb) is fun, and opens up a lot of options at a place like the Gunks, but I've never found hard headpointing to really help with my overall trad onsight skills.  Personally, I don't feel that headpointing and toprope pre-rehearsal is really necessary for folks until they start moving into face-trad at 5.12a or harder (maybe 11a at the Gunks, hehe), for the same reason that projecting and tickmarking sport climbs below 12a is silly.

Here's a headpoint project I had a few years ago.  I thought I had all the gear placements dialed, and had even given it a couple lead goes, but on the send I dealt with a blue ball nut that would NOT set!

https://youtu.be/k6GWrq8WMcM

That's a really good video and looks like an amazing and really scary climb.  Nice!

Gunkiemike wrote:

I'm not sure what list you're looking at. I've never been a 5.11 leader at the Gunks. Or anywhere else!

https://www.mountainproject.com/u/gunkiemike//106502778?action=contribs&what=SCORE&&page=3

Although I just noticed you gave Sinister Urge (5.13a) a two-star rating. :D

Adam Stackhouse wrote:

You mean like regular lead climbing on gear?  

I don't think so... not many people are leading on gear on routes beyond their immediate abilities, AFAIK.

Beean wrote:

You already got your answers in page 1, why can't we have this thread now? This discussion will benefit the entire climbing community. 

HA! Quote of the year. I for one cannot wait for the benefits of what will inevitably be a rich, thought-provoking conversation that will finally help me answer the difficult questions about whether or not I've actually been trad climbing, or if its actually been "sprad", or maybe just gear climbing, or perhaps even some as yet to be determined sub-discipline of going up a rock. The anticipation is killing me.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I don't think so... not many people are leading on gear on routes beyond their immediate abilities, AFAIK.

There are plenty of people in the gunks every weekend that are leading and falling on gear.  It's not happening on 5.5, but there are certainly people that are pushing their grades up there and taking falls.  I had a strong season a few back and was falling my way up almost every weekend (and most of the summer).  The reality is most of 10+ and beyond has pretty well known gear beta for the cruxes so if you know it's near your limit, you get the gear beta and just go for it.  I feel like I know a ton of people that "projected" The Sting last year, and even without ever having given it a lead, I know the gear beta just from everyone else. 

I guess you could say that I "project" trad climbs, but it is more along the lines of shakily placing a piece and yelling "take!" rather than taking big-air whippers. If I am trad climbing it is usually in Eldo and the routes often have distinct short cruxes, I like to double-up on pro before the crux if there are good placements. I'm not a strong climber by any means, so a project for me falls in the 5.11 range. I've long wanted to work on Disappearing Act as a project, it seems like the gear is pretty good and the crux out of deck range. Hmm...Sendtember is just starting...

From this year's ANAC:

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201214194/Leader-Fall-Onto-Ledge

David - From what i'm seeing in your ticks and to-do list (which might not be conclusive as to what you climb, but it's what i can see), i would recommend a strategy of working your way up to this not just throwing yourself at a gunks climb with the same number grade as your limit on sport.  Pick routes that are well protected and keep pushing your grade till they start spitting you off.  Only push your grade on things that you can protect well enough.  Get all the classic well protected 8's.... Absurdland, Arrow, Alphonse, Son of Easy O, Modern Times, Annie O, Three Doves...., then hammer out some 9's... Ant's Line and Bonnie's roof, Roseland, The Spring, No Glow (p2), Directissima.... then get in the 10's.  I expect this is where you'll start getting spit off.  Retribution and Nosedive, P38, Wegetables, Feast of Fools...  I cant make any suggestions harder than that cause that's where i've stopped, but you get the idea.

Some of these you can climb something next to and set a TR on... (wisecrack-> absurdland, no glow P2 has a rap anchor, bunny-> retribution and nosedive, Hans' Puss -> feast of fools, Wegetables you can traverse in to the anchors....)

Hope that helps, none of those routes are on your todo's and i recommend the go there.

My number one piece of advice is to check the piece after you've fallen. Sometimes it will have shifted and resetting it back to its original placement is a good idea, especially if it's the 4th or 5th fall.