The stigma of being a client

Would any of you say that generally there is a stigma attached to being or admitting to have ever been a client on a guided outing for rock climbing or alpine mountaineering?

I would imagine or expect many on MP to express their hatred for wanna-be climbers that have used a guiding service, and to encourage them to kill themselves, because they're pansy, and not real rock climbers.  Or is this a false conception?  How many here, that climb regularly, and that have advanced in their own independence as a rock climber, have at one time or another, ever used a guiding service?  How many of you are guides?

Spencer Parkin wrote:

I would imagine or expect many on MP to express their hatred for wanna-be climbers that have used a guiding service, and to encourage them to kill themselves, because they're pansy, and not real rock climbers.  

This seems a little harsh. 

I have personally never used a guide, but it seems to be very common here on MP. Lots of people recommend new climbers use a guide service to teach them the proper way to do things so that they don't die. I think we all want to be hard-men, but common sense and safety are pretty high up in the priority list too. 

To add to the above. I realize now that I joined a club soon after I started climbing, both to get out and climb in a variety of places and disciplines, as well as to learn the safe way to do things. Very valuable experience. 

I've been climbing for going on 15 years, but when I wanted to climb Rainier I went with a guide service and feel zero shame. Rock climbing shares some commonalities with alpine-style mountaineering but the two styles are still vastly different. Since I don't have the time or geographical opportunity to consistently hone my skills on big peaks, guides were (and for the foreseeable future, are) the best choice for me.

The whole point of climbing is to get outside, have fun, and come home alive - who gives a shit if some rando on the interwebs shits on your "style"? After all, you can always call them out for using sticky rubber shoes - that's aid climbing brah!

I've worked as a guide for an outdoor school and taught numerous beginner/intermediate climbers over the last 5 years.  At least one of those has gone on to attempt El Cap and another is regularly climbing 10's on gear at her local crag.  I know of several who have sought out mentors and partners in their hometowns and continue to climb.  The others that I still have some contact with have varying levels of interest and ability, but none of them would have had the initial experience without the presence of a guide.  

Right after college I climbed Mt. Rainier with a friend.  We were fit, but had ZERO mountain experience.  After our mentor failed to make it beyond 10,000 feet we tagged on with an RMI guide and his wife who were leading clients up the next morning.  They let us follow behind them and helped provide some support as we made our way to the summit and back down.  No way I would have been comfortable making that trip without them.  

Anyhow, those are my experiences and it is my opinion that gaining education in mountain craft is an important step to independence.  No stigma in hiring a guide along the way.  A good number of people on this site support themselves and families through guiding, such a cavalier attitude certainly wouldn't do them any favors.  

I will shamefully admit that I gave money to a person who spent many years acquiring skills and certifications  related to rock climbing.

Same here, used IMG for my first alpine climb at Rainier and have zero regrets. Being from the other side of the country, we don't have glaciated peaks like that so I had a ton of rock climbing and 14k colorado experience, but never something glaciated like that, and I was unable to convince any of my surfer friends to come along and take some classes, so I went with the guide, learned a ton, and met some new climber partners for the future. Doing an 6 day AAI course next. I wouldn't go up a mountain like that, myself with no glacier experience and put multiple people at risk. You don't want to get in trouble up there. I've never used a guide for rock climbing, but if the situation fits, and it helps you get experience, and you have fun, go for it! 

Nobody cares whether or not you have used a guide service. If you use a guide because you lack the  requisite skills, gear, or knowledge to climb something safely, I would  consider that being smart and not a stigma. As you get older, you will realize that no one is paying attention to what you are doing because they are too wrapped up in their own s#@t. Stop worrying about what others think.

The stigma from SAR having to pluck your ass off the mountain because you weren't prepared is far worse than the stigma of being with a guide

I have been a guide/instructor and have also hired other guides to brush up on specific skill sets.  In my opinion hiring a guide is a great idea.

In the last few years I've been guided twice ;

1- Wapta Traverse (on skis) because, although my mountain sense is great, my ski experience is extremely limited, and I didn't need an epic.
2- Nordenskiöld Land polar ski tour with dogs, same reason, plus there's a large predator there so a rifle is required, figured I'd let a guide worry about that.

I see no stigma in it - if there is it's a lot smaller than any stigma gathered getting hurt or worse due to poor choices.

Sounds like no one thinks there is a problem with using a guide. Seems like a rather false conception Spencer. 

Ryan Hamilton wrote:

Sounds like no one thinks there is a problem with using a guide. Seems like a rather false conception Spencer. 

But don't get us wrong, we on MP are judgmental dicks. We just won't judge you for using a guide. We'll judge you for looping both your PASs through your legs.

I used to hold that view. Then I hired IMG to climb in Peru, and it was a great experience. I think a guide is espeically useful if you are going to a place with complex logistics, or you want to learn something new. 

I enjoy climbing for the self-reliance and general independence of it, but among my rotation of partners, I do the vast majority of the leads. so that being said, I've contemplated hiring a guide just to rope-gun me up something I probably wouldn't climb otherwise. I't also seems like an easy way to acquire a bunch of new skills/tricks as a bi-product.

i have used 5-6 guides over the past year alone.... i dont get out often and time can be crucial for me. so sometimes trying to find a partner is out of the question and for the most part if you line up a guide your guaranteed a partner and they have the knowledge of the area your climbing.... i consider myself an intermediate climber with a pretty decent skill set, so most of the guides i have climbed with we have a good day. 

believe it or not 2 years ago when i got the climbing itch after a 10+yr break i didnt really know guide services existed. i started to read about the different guide companys around the country and i was like hey this is great some of my goal i can accomplish easier now .... 

Ryan Hamilton wrote:

Sounds like no one thinks there is a problem with using a guide. Seems like a rather false conception Spencer. 

I agree.  Thanks all.

My wife and I were in Boulder for a short weekend late last year and had one day to climb.  Not knowing the area, and not wanting to search to try and find a crag without snow and ice, I hired a guide for a day of single pitch sport climbing.  It ended up being great - he taught me a few tricks, and gave some great beta for other crags and climbs. Plus, it was really nice to tell him what style of climbing and grades we were looking for and simply follow him.  We got on a lot more pitches that day as if we had went on our own.  Money well spent, IMO.

I will regularly use guides when travelling, they usually have knowledge of great locations, can provide gear (some of which can be cumbersome to travel with) and you meet some fantastic people whilst taking in different experiences, ideas and skills. This is also great as I usually travel solo and have only recently started gaining confidence to meet climbing individuals elsewhere.

It also gives you a safety net, as technically, I guess you're paying for somebody to keep you as safe as possible in what you're doing. Having had accidents in the past, it does give you a piece of mind, especially when trying things out of your comfort zone.

Much of the experience with guides has been priceless, even though I now regularly head out with friends and other climbers, I'll still use guide services in the future.

Some of my best experiences have been with guides.

:)

Francesca Parratt wrote:

I will regularly use guides when travelling, they usually have knowledge of great locations, can provide gear (some of which can be cumbersome to travel with) and you meet some fantastic people whilst taking in different experiences, ideas and skills. This is also great as I usually travel solo and have only recently started gaining confidence to meet climbing individuals elsewhere.

Some of my best experiences have been with guides.

I've only once had a problem with a guide, he was a douchebag and I ended up in the ER, but otherwise, the rest were super people. 

:)

Yeah, most guides I've been out with are way cool people; there have only been a few that were not so cool.  It wasn't until a few years into my use of guides that someone got offended because I failed to tip them.  I had no idea that tipping was expected.  It makes me wonder how many guides over the years were mad at me for not tipping, but didn't show it at all.

Anyhow, hiring a guide is very expensive, and I've never been made of money, so it seems like an unreasonable burden on me for them to expect a tip.  If they need a tip to get the amount of money they need to survive, then I think their boss should pay them more.  And I'm not against tipping.  Ever since a guide finally told me he expected a tip, I have made it a point to provide one.  What this really means to me is that I have to take whatever the going rate is and add whatever I think the tip should be, and so budget for that; so it makes hiring a guide alot more expensive than the service advertises.

Some guides have treated me like they were baby-sitting me, and you could tell that they didn't want to be there, even though I was trying my best.

My most memorable guided outings include...

1) South ridge of Mt. Superior, LCC

2) North ridge of the Pfiefferhorn, LCC

3) Tingy's Terror, Tingy's Torture, LCC

4) The Sundial, Lake Blanche Fork, BCC

5) The West Slabs of Mt. Olympus

That's what initially comes to mind.  Tyson Bradley is probably the best guide I've been out with.  I really like that guy.