Tips for moving fast on multi pitch climbs

FrankPS wrote:

Oh, look, you found an exception. I think we're talking about an average multi-pitch here, not NIAD. 

There is a big difference between a normal person's NIAD rack and a record speed attempt by Hansie and Alex etc.

The normal person's NIAD has all of the essential Trad items on there that the party deems necessary and no fluff ie a standard "traditional" rack of rock protection to 4" plus a few aid doo-dads.

Taking the minimum necessary is the key to going fast. I haven't NIAD but I did HD regular route B2B in 12 hours in ~1982.

kevin deweese wrote:

Happy to be the straight man to your joke

=) 

Patrik wrote:

  Interesting! There's nothing more annoying to me than someone wasting time (and increasing the chance of dropping gear) moving nuts from one biner to another. At the belay changeover, I (if I were the leader) still need to grab the nuts on the "sorting biner" from the follower and move it over to my racking biners. Why move nuts twice (once while climbing, once at the belay switch over)? 

To answer my own question:

1) If you only carry one racking biner of nuts, the move-over is fairly simple if the follower choose to sort them onto a carrying biner (as slim wants it). I tend to climb with a ton of nuts (and still can manage to get 12-15 pitches in a day occasionally) on three separate racking biners in which case the follower's sorting is useless waste of time. 

2) If the leader carries draws on a gear sling while climbing (which I don't), it is handy if the follower comes up with all the draws "empty" on a sling (as slim suggests). The leader just grabs that sling and use it as a gear sling on the next pitch. No need to move around draws.

I don't see how it takes "literally zero effort" for the follower to move stuff around / sort while climbing though. At the belay station, he would have a much better stance, two hands free, and he should be quicker sorting things out there before handing it over. This makes no sense to me though as it is more efficient for the leader to sort at the same time as reracking (from the follower's temporary gear sling that he just handed over). 

Maybe the ultimate solution to "moving fast on multi pitch climbs" is: Sport climbing. Is anyone bolting The Nose yet?

Depending on the route I will use anywhere from 1-3 biners of stoppers.  for routes that are easy or just not as stopper intensive, where i will use one biner.  for squamish, the needles, or other areas with long pitches and generally a lot of stopper placements i will usually use 2 biners (one biner has 'hollow/big' stoppers and the other has 'solid/smaller' stoppers).  if i am doing a route that requires micros i will keep them on a separate (3rd biner).  it is pretty easy to adapt to this using my sorting method.  when cleaning you can just set up the first 3 slings to sort them out.  i have these set up with the gate facing outward and upside down so i can quickly just drop the stopper right into the biner.  it also works ok to just use the one biner and do a quick sort at the anchor.  i think it is way faster than digging through all of the slings to see which ones have stoppers, etc.

it really doesn't take much effort to do all of this while seconding.  most routes aren't full on super sustained climbing for a 150 foot pitch (in which case anything goes, i have no problem with this situation).  however, most pitches have a few hard moves to a stance, where the second will likely be shaking out / looking ahead / getting their shit together.  it is really easy to just do one or two quick things to keep sorted.  it really is close to zero effort once you get in the habit of it, i mean how much effort does it take to put the green alien between the blue and yellow aliens after you clean it?

there are several problems with having both people sort when you get to the belay.  it ends up being a lot of hands flying around, and i think you have a lot more chance of dropping gear in this situation than when sorting while seconding.  it also seems like once you stop to do this, someone wants to grab a quick bite to eat, then they need a drink to wash it down, then they need to pee, then we need a selfie, etc.

CAMP USA wrote:

This is a great technique which is faster, safer, and less gear-intensive than the alternatives. Here's a step-by-step summary.

I don't think that saves any time over having the 2nd clove into a waiting locker that the leader pre-rigged as the 2nd was coming up. Once the 2nd is cloved to the anchor, the leader (now belayer) pulls the ATC-guide off the anchor biner,  leaving the rope rigged through the break biner. Clip the break biner (with lead rope still rigged) to belay loop and viola, new leader is on belay for the next pitch. How is this slower than having to rig one ATC, then unrig the other one? Less chance to drop a device. If there is a time difference, it's mere seconds in experienced hands. What really saves time is having both climbers doing their jobs at the station without having to wait on one another. 

1) Belay where it's easy to make an obvious anchor with the gear you have and don't burn gear needed on next pitch. Don't link an extra 20 feet and then futz around making an anchor with akward placements that take time to get right.

2) Create a tidy belay station with an obvious place for the 2nd to anchor at the changeover. 

3) Manage rope considering path of the next pitch so that the 2nd doesn't climb through your rats nest.

4) Leader transfers remaining gear (organized in order) to a sling clipped to anchor while 2nd is climbing and belayed in guide mode.

5) Leader eats, drinks, rests, puts on jacket, takes photos while 2nd is climbing w/ guide belay

6) Follower cleans quickly and racks gear to the right place while cleaning. If too strenuous, leave gear on rope until a rest stance is reached, then rack to the correct place. OHIO.

7) Follower arrives at belay, anchors to locker that leader points out, starts racking.

8) while follower is racking for next lead, leader unclips her ATC from guide biner and clips to belay loop. Tie backup knot behind ATC.

9) Study topo while new leader racks, to help point out features of next pitch.

10) clip rope between ATC and new leader's clove through high redirect point.

11) climb

slim wrote:

Depending on the route I will use anywhere from 1-3 biners of stoppers.  for routes that are easy or just not as stopper intensive, where i will use one biner.  for squamish, the needles, or other areas with long pitches and generally a lot of stopper placements i will usually use 2 biners (one biner has 'hollow/big' stoppers and the other has 'solid/smaller' stoppers).  if i am doing a route that requires micros i will keep them on a separate (3rd biner).  it is pretty easy to adapt to this using my sorting method.  when cleaning you can just set up the first 3 slings to sort them out.  i have these set up with the gate facing outward and upside down so i can quickly just drop the stopper right into the biner.  it also works ok to just use the one biner and do a quick sort at the anchor.  i think it is way faster than digging through all of the slings to see which ones have stoppers, etc.

it really doesn't take much effort to do all of this while seconding.  most routes aren't full on super sustained climbing for a 150 foot pitch (in which case anything goes, i have no problem with this situation).  however, most pitches have a few hard moves to a stance, where the second will likely be shaking out / looking ahead / getting their shit together.  it is really easy to just do one or two quick things to keep sorted.  it really is close to zero effort once you get in the habit of it, i mean how much effort does it take to put the green alien between the blue and yellow aliens after you clean it?

there are several problems with having both people sort when you get to the belay.  it ends up being a lot of hands flying around, and i think you have a lot more chance of dropping gear in this situation than when sorting while seconding.  it also seems like once you stop to do this, someone wants to grab a quick bite to eat, then they need a drink to wash it down, then they need to pee, then we need a selfie, etc.

  "...digging through all of the slings to see which ones have stoppers, etc." 

Why do you need to dig through slings? If the follower spends no time in sorting, every sling on the follower's temporary gear sling will have one (or occasionally two) piece of gear that needs to be reracked when he arrives at the belay station. Grab one sling from the follower's temporary gear sling, rerack the piece from that sling, place the sling where it belongs on your racking method (on the leader's harness in my case). Grab the next sling, etc. I see no need to search for gear. 

  " ... however, most pitches have a few hard moves to a stance, where the second will likely be shaking out / looking ahead / getting their shit together." 

Eeh?? I thought we were talking about "moving fast". The places I have climbed at, it is usually a hard move or three followed by an easier section. There is no real need to hang out at a stance to recover. Just keep moving onto the easier section (or at least focus on the climbing trying to figure out how to move up instead of being distracted by gear) and rest while you're cruising the easy part ("easy" means at least a full grade lower than the crux). 

" ... someone wants to grab a quick bite to eat, then they need a drink to wash it down, then they need to pee, then we need a selfie, etc."

Always obey rule #1:  Keep both climbers busy at all times. Consequence: If one starts to pee, the other needs to pee (or at least do something else useful). If someone needs a selfie, the other should grab his camera and drop it down the cliff (I still think we were talking about "moving fast" and in my mind, selfies does not belong in this scheme). If anyone needs to do something "personal" (eat, drink, pee), do it before you do the "community work" (rope management, gear sorting ...). The one who does not need to spend time on "personal needs" (or completes it more quickly) simply picks up more of the "community work". 

Adding to my previous "list of items" (on p. 2 of this thred):

14. Never skimp on rope management. If you're trying a short cut in this department, the rope will be a mess, the belayer needs to sort out the spaghetti (and gets pissed), and the leader takes unnecessary risks (and gets pissed). If there is any doubt at all that the rope is neat, just restack it (while the other partner does something else useful). 

15. Always see an alpine draw as "one unit". Don't separate biners and slings. An alpine draw is nothing else than an "extendable quickdraw" and shouldn't cause any more time to clean than a regular quickdraw (unless you need the extra 4 seconds to triple up an extended one). 

16. Don't haul around a 70m rope on climbs (or climbing areas) where a 60m rope is just fine.

17. If rapelling down, one sets up the rapel and rapels, while the other sorts gear (eats, drinks, pees, whatever...). This is yet another good reason for the second to carry a temporary gear sling to put cleaned gear onto instead of clipping it to his harness. When the first rapeller reaches the next rap station, quickly feed through 3ft of rope before clipping in. The top guy can now mount his rapell at the same time as the bottom guy clips in and takes off his rapel device. Yes, I know this is getting annoyingly detailed to just shave seconds, but once you get into the habit, it will be something automatic that you'll never think of. No, I'm not a "speed climber", have no aspirations for NIAD, but I really enjoy being efficient and hanging out with efficient climbing partners who has their shit together. 

18. If rapelling, use a rope with an easy-to-see middle mark, which makes it a lot easier to set up the rapell.

19. When the leader has built a new belay station, don't just causally lift up the rope. HAUL up the rope. Your arms can be aching after this is done, after all, you'll have a long belay session to rest anyway. 

20. If stacking the rope onto your clip-in rope while belaying, learn the trick of using unequal length loops to reduce the possibility of a tangled rope. The end of the rope that the leader of the next pitch is tied to should have the shortest loop. ( https://www.climbing.com/skills/learn-this-alpine-rope-management/ , for some odd reason, their picture doesn't show how it is done, but the text is clear).

21. Larger nuts tend to have a sideways hole in them. Generally, avoid placing those nuts (and hexes) sideways. They much more easily get hung up on crystals (especially on granite) being troublesome to clean.

22. Practice some simple (5.0) unroped downclimbing so you're comfortable with this. Some decents require this, so if you are hesitating and getting nervous in this department, it can take forever to get off. This is highly dependent on where you climb and seems more common out west (in US).

Awesome advice.  Thanks all.

Climb solo without gear or only place gear at anchors.

Anticipation and planning are the key to moving fast. Things like racking gear clean and in order all the time minimizes time in exchanging gear, stacking or coiling neatly and cleanly so they can be flipped quickly minimizes rope management time during transitions. Leading in blocks is the fastest way to climb, without question.

Don't simul-rap. It isnt faster and it is more dangerous. Pre rig rappels instead so that the 2nd can begin rapping the same second the first is off. 

Make sure your partner is motivated to climb fast and efficiently.  Most are not.

I hate it when the follower disassembled alpine draws or takes the racking biner off the cam.  What are they thinking?

Lots of really good advice in this thread. 

Lots of good stuff on this thread.

Hans Florine's book has good tips for systems. As has been said, moving efficiently as a team and not fucking around at belays can take hours off of long climbs without any actual faster movement. https://www.amazon.com/Speed-Climbing-Climb-Faster-Better/dp/0762730951

However, there is a point where relaxing a by-the-book approach is a tradeoff for getting faster. That involves strong situational awareness or willingness to take on more risk (or trade one type of risk for another), and probably both. So, I think a lot of the things that add speed require understanding systems and potential failure modes, and clear understanding and agreement between partners. A lot of what is written here should not be contemplated unless there is a strong skill base to work from. 

All this said, I find moving efficiently as a team to be extremely satisfying. Good thing too since I can't do the actual climbing very fast anymore, not that I ever really could.  

Pick routes that are at least a number grade below what your onsight limit is at the crag.

Id rather take my time enjoying a 4 pitch route than racing an 8 pitch route. But, to each his own. I once (keyword: once) climbed with a dude in Eldo and we did something like 30 pitches that day. I dont really remember what routes or really anything of that day except him yelling at me for rolling a ciggie at one of the belays because it was wasting time. I could roll a cig and light it in about 15 seconds. 

You dont have to take your shoes off at every belay. 

Darren Mabe wrote:

Id rather take my time enjoying a 4 pitch route than racing an 8 pitch route. 

It's just that there are so many classics that are in the 1000' - 1500' range (and more than 8 pitches) that are easily doable in a day - including a daylight descent - but only if you're efficient. As someone way up-thread noted, there's a difference between moving efficiently, which implies a certain swiftness, and "racing".

But, to each his own. I once (keyword: once) climbed with a dude in Eldo and we did something like 30 pitches that day. I dont really remember what routes or really anything of that day ...

That's a bit of an outlier, doncha think?

...except him yelling at me for rolling a ciggie at one of the belays because it was wasting time. I could roll a cig and light it in about 15 seconds. 

My reaction to you, silently, would have been the thought: "Really, dude? You're that addicted that you can't wait till we top out?"

climber pat wrote:

I hate it when the follower ... takes the racking biner off the cam.  What are they thinking?

Er, my followers usually don't have the option since I'm the one removing the racking biner 'cause there's an excellent chance I'll need it later in the pitch or at the anchor. Of course it's all situation dependent.

Looking at my past epics I can see a few reasons for not executing multi-pitch climbs quickly:

1 - I was (for certain reasons) with a party of three.

2 - I was with a partner who I had not climbed with before who turned out to be horribly slow at climbing, and setting up at the stances.

3 - I got stuck behind somebody going very slowly. In one case it was a soloist who ground to a halt when he decided to break out a rope and do rope solo. In another case it was a fast couple who took a lot longer than anticipated on the crux pitch. In both of these cases I let them pass - but in retrospect should have had them stay behind me.

I've never been slow due to equipment, only people. Experiences of others may differ. I've been climbing in the US for about 35 years, with my current partners we have been climbing together for 25 years or so - so we tend to move very efficiently together and talk very little.

So, don't climb with strangers and be urgent and safe. Think the climb through beforehand, and estimate a completion time. There's a lot of beta on MP for specific routes and how long they take - this is useful information which enables you to figure out how well you are moving.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

I also occasionally grab my partner's belay device in slow motion too, I should stop doing that.

I think you're lucky. I actually climb in slow motion, talk about pissing my partner off!

I didn't read every post so maybe this advice was already given.

• Lead in blocks. Always! 4 to 8 pitches is the sweet spot depending on difficulty and your fitness.  And set the blocks up so they favor your teams strengths and weaknesses.  You can also set a time length to lead.  One partner leads for 4 hours, then you switch.  This probably only applies for routes that are really long.  And if you are leading in blocks make sure the leader knows how to stack the ropes the right way.  If leading again, the loops should be stacked short to long, if changing leaders it should be long to short. 
• Learn how to use micro-traxions for simul climbing, fixed line following and even belaying the follower.  I'd say a micro traxion or 2 (or even 3)  has become a standard part of all high-end climbers racks these days.  On the last trip I did to Alaska with Colin Haley we were simuling pitches that were 200m long on moderately difficult climbing (up to AI5).  Colin would place a micro every 60m or so in case I fell while following.
• Break down most of the anchor and be ready to climb (shoes and pack on) before your partner even finishes the pitch.  I will often just be cloved to one piece when my partner says off belay.  Once he says on belay I can be climbing in less than15 sec.  
• And going against what some people say, simul rapping is a lot faster.  And without a doubt can be more dangerous but can be done totally safely as well.  Make sure both climbers know how to efficiently rap with a prussic backup, this mitigates some of the risk.  I trust my partner to lower me at the sport crag and he trusts me to do the same.  Simul rapping is no different than lowering your partner.
• Use the lightest gear possible.  Harness, biners, and ropes can all be really light these days.  But even find a light weight chalk bag, water bottle, headlamp, knife, helmet, jacket, etc... Every gram counts.  I use petzl's ultralight sport climbing harness for multi day climbs.  There is no need for a big harness unless you plan on hauling a haul bag.  And if you can't fit all of your gear on the gear loops you have too much gear.   Edelrid makes a 19g biner, they are small but I can easily clip them while winter climbing with big gloves.  It just takes practice.  And get a small hand scale and start weighing your gear/pack at the car to get an idea of how much you are carrying. 

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

• Learn how to use micro-traxions for simul climbing, fixed line following and even belaying the follower.  I'd say a micro traxion or 2 (or even 3)  has become a standard part of all high-end climbers racks these days.  On the last trip I did to Alaska with Colin Haley we were simuling pitches that were 200m long on moderately difficult climbing (up to AI5).  Colin would place a micro every 60m or so in case I fell while following.

Mikey, do you feel that the micro offers a big advantage over a tiblock for simuling?  Perhaps spring-loading the "ratchet" against the rope reduces the probability of rope destruction in a fall?  I have used both for this purpose but have not fallen on either, so would be interested in your thoughts.

Also, the fact that you guys consider AI5 "moderately difficult" and consider simuling it is awesome.  I call AI5 "really f'ing hard, let's bail."

Kevin MP wrote:

This is not good advice. Long slings are indispensable on many routes, especially on easier ground that tends to wander more. Extending placements reduces rope drag and helps when linking pitches, both of which save time. 

Everything you do when climbing single-pitch at the crag translates to climbing multi-pitch as well. If you are content to spend all day climbing 3 pitches and do more socializing than sending, you will have a hard time switching to a faster pace on a long route. The people that climb 8 or 10 pitches every time they go cragging are the ones moving fast on multipitch too. Have a plan. Always be doing something productive towards getting the next person climbing. Use clear, concise communication.

There are no shortcuts to climbing, placing gear, or building anchors faster, just many miles of practice. Keeping anchors simple and clutter-free is tops. One of the most important aspects that can be improved quickly is rope management. Learn how to stack the rope neatly over your tie-in point. Depending on whether you are swinging leads or leading in blocks, stack big loops to small or small loops to big (then flip). An sling can be useful for the follower to hang the stacked rope from their gear loop to make belaying easier. Taking an extra second to keep the rope organized and tangle-free is always worth it.

Another aspect that will be honed over time is bringing just enough gear and not too much. This is hard to gauge, but whenever you finish a route, take a quick inventory of what you used and what you didn't. Were there pieces of gear on the rack that didn't get used or others you wish you had? Could you carry slightly less water or food next time? Was it cold and you wished you had a belay jacket? Did you need the backpack or could everything be clipped to your harness or stashed in pockets? At least one headlamp for the party is always a good idea.

Given all the advice here, this is some of the best I've seen. Remember that everything you do contributes to how you perform overall, not one certain thing. Respect the process, enjoy the continual evolution. Remember to enjoy all aspects of climbing.