Second loop on BD ATC Guide?

normajean wrote:

You've got to know what to search for

Agreed. 

Did you get the image you posted from here: http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Belay-Device-Reviews/Black-Diamond-ATC-Guide ?

Check out the tech tip in the upcoming edition of Climbing. It's an excerpt from The Mountain Guide Manual and it covers an alternative method to releasing a loaded plaquette via the "hole in question" discussed in this thread! The tech tip will be on the LSD lower--a safer, easier, faster method to release a plaquette--heads up for it! And then buy the book. Yeah!

First let me say that I'm not a fan of using guide mode (except when leading on doubles and belaying two followers at the same time.) And I don't like being belaying in guide mode. At all.

Why?

wivanoff wrote:

Agreed. 

Did you get the image you posted from here: http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Belay-Device-Reviews/Black-Diamond-ATC-Guide ?

Yes, but the description was not helpful to me

Sean H wrote:

Why?

I find it uncomfortable, especially when going up then down in working a sequence of moves. Or when a follower needs some slack to get to a better stance maybe when removed a piece. There's a higher chance of being dropped if being lowered. I don't like how belaying feels when using a single fatter rope.

I'm not saying I NEVER do it. It's just never my first choice. I much prefer an indirect off my harness tight to the anchor or a rediect already set up tp swap leads.

normajean wrote:

Yes, but the description was not helpful to me

Fair enough. I thought the caption to the photo you posted ("The hole used to release a weighted device in auto-block mode is larger on the Petzl Reverso 4 (left) than the Black Diamond ATC Guide (right). Although this makes lowering an auto-blocked climber slightly harder with the ATC Guide..." ) would have pointed you in the right direction.

At any rate, again, good on you for asking.

Given enough practice it's not that hard. Redirecting through the anchor puts additional stress on it and is harder to escape in a situation that you need to free your hands.

wivanoff wrote:

There's a higher chance of being dropped if being lowered. 

I feel like theres a higher chance of being dropped if being lowered. 

Fixed.

Tylerpratt wrote:

I feel like theres a higher chance of being dropped if being lowered. 

Fixed.

And yet you wrote upthread: "It can be easy to forget and setup like a normal belay and then you second is not on autoblock and they can be dropped if you are careless."

Yup, if setup incorrectly the autoblock can be dangerous. But lowering isnt as hard or as difficult or dangerous as most of you are making it out to be. 

Really, if you want to belay someone on an autoblock and lower them easily and make it nearly idiot proof just use a Grigri.

Guy Keesee wrote:

Yes .... please know how to work one of those be-fore you drop someone.

I have been dropped two times on one of those fuc$#rs, once by a guide!!!

I'm guilty of "fast lowering" my second ~20' a few years ago on a Kong GiGi because I was too lazy to do it right. Really opened my eyes to the binary action of a device in guide mode - it's either locked off or wide open. The DMM Pivot is a vast improvement.

wivanoff wrote:

. I thought the caption to the photo you posted ("The hole used to release a weighted device in auto-block mode is larger on the Petzl Reverso 4 (left) than the Black Diamond ATC Guide (right). Although this makes lowering an auto-blocked climber slightly harder with the ATC Guide..." ) would have pointed you in the right direction.

You would think, ha? The idea that lowering is an issue did not occur to me, so that was a non-sensical statement. 

Keep the questions coming Normajean. 

Its the internet, so you have to use your own judgment in the final analysis, and some will chime in with their own issues, but some are happy to help when they can.

normajean wrote:

You would think, ha? The idea that lowering is an issue did not occur to me, so that was a non-sensical statement. 

Then I am glad you asked.

Sometimes people see something and it just doesn't "click".

There are some good video's on youtube that explain how to properly use it and how to safely back it up so you don't drop your partner.

From AAC's 2016 Accidents publications 

Alex Rosa wrote:

From AAC's 2016 Accidents publications 

Problem with the biner above approach to redirect brake strand and keep it in v grooves is that a lot of climbers belay off the shelf to get a guide device higher for better handling when good pro isn't available high above the stance. For people who set up their anchors this way a munter directly on the belay loop with the device fully open works. It's faster to set up and just as safe IMO.

Nick Drake wrote:

Problem with the biner above approach to redirect brake strand and keep it in v grooves is that a lot of climbers belay off the shelf to get a guide device higher for better handling when good pro isn't available high above the stance. For people who set up their anchors this way a munter directly on the belay loop with the device fully open works. It's faster to set up and just as safe IMO.

The redirected technique (shown above in the photo) doesn't need to be that high--so even if belaying off the shelf, a carabiner clipped to the same material in front of the device is enough to release the device and create an LSD lower---which has some inherent friction. Back this up with a friction-hitch on the brake strand, clipped to the belay loop with a locker, and you get no twisting (as with a Munter), it's more controlled and you don't have to do two tasks simultaneously (managing the lower and unweighting the device via the mysterious small hole the OP inquired about)....

You could always re-direct through an extra beaner through pro in the situation above?

coppolillo wrote:

The redirected technique (shown above in the photo) doesn't need to be that high--so even if belaying off the shelf, a carabiner clipped to the same material in front of the device is enough to release the device and create an LSD lower---which has some inherent friction. Back this up with a friction-hitch on the brake strand, clipped to the belay loop with a locker, and you get no twisting (as with a Munter), it's more controlled and you don't have to do two tasks simultaneously (managing the lower and unweighting the device via the mysterious small hole the OP inquired about)....

I'll have to try it out again, when I had to do this there was not enough distance between the device and redirect biner. Note that my biner for the device was a small offset D and the redirect for the rope was a BD rocklock. 

I've always used a sling to a piece above and my foot to just fully open the device easily while using a munter.