Second loop on BD ATC Guide?

normajean wrote:

I've re-read this a few time, but having a problem picturing it. Do you have an illustration by any chance?

Using the munter to control the release of the brake strand is very briefly illustrated at 3:27 in the first video Michael posted. 

Alternatively, use an autobloc or prussik on the brake strand to lower the climber in a controlled fashion. For examples of this method, see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyxeUg7_4Kk (starting at about 1:00; the Munter that Greg D mentioned above is replaced by the autoblock that is placed around 1:15 in this video)

Or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjOs_CiyMHI

The basic point here is that you don't want to flip the ATC guide from belaying in guide mode to an open mode without some friction on the brake strand. You should not hold the brake strand with just your bare hand to lower your follower because that is a recipe for unintentionally dropping your follower.

FanZ wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyxeUg7_4Kk (starting at about 1:00; the Munter that Greg D mentioned above is replaced by the autoblock that is placed around 1:15 in this video)

Yes, this video is close to what I described.  The only difference, use a Munter on the belay loop instead of a friction hitch.  Notice how he completely unlocks the auto block without knowing for certain, that the friction hitch will hold.  Yes, he does have his hand on the brake strand.  But...    Friction hitches have quite a wide range of holding power, depending on the amount of wraps, the material used, etc.  Furthermore, I think lowering someone on a friction hitch is quite a bit inferior to a Munter for a number of reasons.  Most important, it is easier to control rate of lowering on Munter.  YMMV.

I was taught to avoid belaying directly off any suspect anchor using an auto block device.  Judgement call as to exactly what you consider bombproof, but that was one aspect my mentor emphasized to me.  As I understand it, the auto block has no dynamics, binding immediately.  Such that you are better served to belay off your harness, redirect through the anchor in order to give a softer catch and limit the shock load.

GoatSlayer wrote:

Oh my god... and all this time I've been using that to hold my cigarette.

Oh my god... and all this time I've been using that to hold my Joint.

Fixed.

FanZ wrote:

Using the munter to control the release of the brake strand is very briefly illustrated at 3:27 in the first video Michael posted. 

Alternatively, use an autobloc or prussik on the brake strand to lower the climber in a controlled fashion. For examples of this method, see

The basic point here is that you don't want to flip the ATC guide from belaying in guide mode to an open mode without some friction on the brake strand. You should not hold the brake strand with just your bare hand to lower your follower because that is a recipe for unintentionally dropping your follower.

OMG, the complexity of this setup could clearly lead to a disaster! It will take me about a year to get this one down. I will have to play with all the options it in my back yard for a while before I could even tell if my partner knows how to use the device. It's interesting that for giving just a bit of slack, he is using the biner that's already there, not one inserted through the release loop, which is another option as depicted in the first set of videos.  Thanks, everyone! This was totally worth the posting and the bashing. 

Humbly suggest, those folks who purchased an auto block device and have not idea how or what its for.  That they chose it: A. because it cost more than a standard tube, more is always better right?; & B. got it just in case they need whatever it can do.  My early sport climbing days, I would have behaved thought just the same.

Craig Childre wrote:

I was taught to avoid belaying directly off any suspect anchor using an auto block device.  Judgement call as to exactly what you consider bombproof, but that was one aspect my mentor emphasized to me.  As I understand it, the auto block has no dynamics, binding immediately.  Such that you are better served to belay off your harness, redirect through the anchor in order to give a softer catch and limit the shock load.

Why would you be giving a soft catch on toprope?  More importantly, why are you building an anchor that you wouldn't trust to belay a second on?!

While this notion does apply in a few rare alpine scenarios, it should NOT be coming up on a regular basis, and if you're cruising classics, you should never have anything less than a bomb-proof anchor.  If you don't think your anchor will hold your second, what the hell do you think is going to happen when the leader falls on it?  We build anchors to survive the worst possible scenario - a Factor 2 Fall directly onto the anchor.  If your anchor can't hold this, it's not good enough.  Do you really want to put yourself into a situation where you're saying to yourself "oh, better not fall here, or else we both die!"?

Also, if your anchor is suspect, the LAST thing you would do is a redirect - this puts significantly MORE load on the anchor due to the pulley effect.  For suspect anchors, the best thing is to belay directly off of your harness (PiTA), but again: most of the time, your anchor should be good enough to belay a second, and a direct belay is much safer and more comfortable.

normajean wrote:

OMG, the complexity of this setup could clearly lead to a disaster! It will take me about a year to get this one down. I will have to play with all the options it in my back yard for a while before I could even tell if my partner knows how to use the device. It's interesting that for giving just a bit of slack, he is using the biner that's already there, not one inserted through the release loop, which is another option as depicted in the first set of videos.  Thanks, everyone! This was totally worth the posting and the bashing. 

For extra redundancy you can climb with two grigris and double ropes and put your second on two points on your anchor with two different belay devices and then you boys are super bombproof MIND=BLOWN!!!

Seriously dudes...

Simple is safe

Put someone on guide mode and fucking belay them.

Flame on

Craig Childre wrote:

I was taught to avoid belaying directly off any suspect anchor using an auto block device.  Judgement call as to exactly what you consider bombproof, but that was one aspect my mentor emphasized to me.  As I understand it, the auto block has no dynamics, binding immediately.  Such that you are better served to belay off your harness, redirect through the anchor in order to give a softer catch and limit the shock load.

Hmm.  No dynmaics?  Are you belaying with a steel cable?  True, the auto block doesn't have much slippage or dynamics.  But, you have a dynamic rope.  "Shock load" is a fancy phrase that is often misused.  Also, a redirect nearly doubles the load on the anchor, as Ted mentioned. 

Craig Childre wrote:

Humbly suggest, those folks who purchased an auto block device and have not idea how or what its for.  That they chose it: A. because it cost more than a standard tube, more is always better right?; & B. got it just in case they need whatever it can do.  My early sport climbing days, I would have behaved thought just the same.

Humbly remind, some of us folks purchased it for the higher friction option. Nice to have.

Best, OLH

Old lady H wrote:

Humbly remind, some of us folks purchased it for the higher friction option. Nice to have.

Best, OLH

Many folks were using tube-style belay devices before the "higher friction option" was even a thought.

If higher friction is what you are after, the ATC XP provides a high friction mode with even better holding power than the ATC Guide, at a lower price.

normajean wrote:

OMG, the complexity of this setup could clearly lead to a disaster! It will take me about a year to get this one down. I will have to play with all the options it in my back yard for a while before I could even tell if my partner knows how to use the device. It's interesting that for giving just a bit of slack, he is using the biner that's already there, not one inserted through the release loop, which is another option as depicted in the first set of videos.  Thanks, everyone! This was totally worth the posting and the bashing. 

Normajean, no bashing on my part! I retract the offer of the useless piece of paper, lol!

And, truly, being dropped as described above, was a mighty big motivator to not ever need to be lowered from a top belay, if at all possible. As I will always be the less strong partner, part of my obligation is not letting myself get in way over my head, and learning how to "cheat" my way through a short bit as needed.

This is just my opinion for me, glad you are putting the effort in for yourself! :-)

Best, Helen

I've always tried to set the belay device close enough to me to be able to pull the brake strand back into the "traditional" braking position (behind the device). Then if the climber needs to be lower to repeat a section, I've simply pushed backwards a little on the blocking biner until there's enough slippage to let some rope through. It's a bit of an effort hold the blocking biner like that, but the device will lock again very easily. So I've never used that hole. Does no one else lower like this from guide mode?

normajean- I'm glad you asked. It's much better to seek information (through whatever method you choose) to completely understand your device than to just try to figure it out and risk injuring you or your partner. There will always be good people out there who are happy to share their knowledge.

I'd like to emphasize the importance of additional systems to safely lower a second being belayed in guide mode. As stated before, there is a very narrow range between "locked" and fully released. I think it is particularly dangerous because if the device is released too aggressively and the climber starts falling, a common instinctive reaction from the belayer is to pull tighter on the device/rope which actually ends up releasing the device even further and accelerating the fall. This is of particular concern when a sling is girth hitched through the small hole in order to release the device, as it allows the belayer to exert more force, even inadvertently.

This actually occurred in a scenario I was involved in- I was getting lowered in guide mode a short distance to retrieve some gear (don't worry, I got it) by a belayer who hadn't had much experience with belaying in guide mode. They released the device too far and dropped me ~30ft, where I impacted the rock upside down and got a nice concussion for my troubles (+1 for helmets, I'm sure I would've been much worse off without it). I'm sharing so hopefully others can learn from my mistakes.

After this accident I spent some time looking into ways to prevent this from happening in the future, as I didn't recall this scenario cautioned against in device instructions, nor had it come up while climbing with my trad mentors/partners. This video provides decent examples for both short and long distance lowering, by either rocking the carabiner (contacting the rope) back and forth to let out a little slack, or releasing the device * with friction hitch backup and brake strand re-direct * to lower the climber further. I like the munter suggestion from GregD, will have to try that out. Lowering from a loaded autoblock device is not a super common occurrence, so perhaps it's not discussed as much, but it can be really dangerous if done improperly.

Whatever method you choose, I think the key thing to remember here is don't try to release a loaded autoblock device with out some sort of backup on the brake strand. 

Craig Childre wrote:

I was taught to avoid belaying directly off any suspect anchor using an auto block device.  Judgement call as to exactly what you consider bombproof, but that was one aspect my mentor emphasized to me.  As I understand it, the auto block has no dynamics, binding immediately.  Such that you are better served to belay off your harness, redirect through the anchor in order to give a softer catch and limit the shock load.

I was taught not to build suspect anchors. If the stance does not have good anchor possibilities, climb up higher or go back down until you find what you need.

With the way you were taught, what do you do on the next pitch? Belay your leader off suspect anchors that you were unwilling to top rope from?

Mathias wrote:

I've always tried to set the belay device close enough to me to be able to pull the brake strand back into the "traditional" braking position (behind the device). Then if the climber needs to be lower to repeat a section, I've simply pushed backwards a little on the blocking biner until there's enough slippage to let some rope through. It's a bit of an effort hold the blocking biner like that, but the device will lock again very easily. So I've never used that hole. Does no one else lower like this from guide mode?

That's how I did it when I used an ATC Guide.  I'm not a big fan of how the release lever works, which is why I use the DMM Pivot now.  Have lowered a climber down a full pitch, without a backup, and it was fine.

normajean wrote:

1. Thank you, Tylerpratt and Michael Snyder, for a helpful response and videos. Everyone else, no need to be helpful here if you don't want to be, so carry on! But MP would be a more pleasant place to visit if you simply did not respond. 

Hey normajean,

First let me say that I'm not a fan of using guide mode (except when leading on doubles and belaying two followers at the same time.) And I don't like being belaying in guide mode. At all.

Good on you for asking. But, this topic has been discussed a lot on MP and I'm wondering what you found in your search and why it did not satisfy your question.

Ted Pinson wrote:

That's how I did it when I used an ATC Guide.  I'm not a big fan of how the release lever works, which is why I use the DMM Pivot now.  Have lowered a climber down a full pitch, without a backup, and it was fine.

I'll have to try the Pivot some day. 

In the few times I've done this with an ATC-Guide, I've redirected the brake strand to a point behind the ATC and used my nut pry to lever/pivot the ATC. Simple. No Munter required.

wivanoff wrote:

You've got to know what to search for