Women's climbing festival

The reason I brought it up again is because of the Mountain Project Journal article in the sidebar. The basis for my questions is more than just this climbing festival thing. Society wants white males to be more PC and accepting, but instead of demonstrating that value, it only gets reinforced by non-white male groups banding together. It makes me feel like I am the bad guy when I really am not.

Old Lady H, thank you for the thoughtful response and acknowledging that differences that exist. I appreciate that you are not packaging it as in inclusive event.

Em Cos - I wish that feminism was called equalism.

Alicia - I dont care if anyone hosts a womens only climbing event. I am just questioning how it is packaged and sold. And after reading this thread I am more enlightened.

Everyone complaining this is a tiresome, boring topic...it is just getting started in society. So get used to it. Because PC has just begun and its going to get a lot thicker before it gets better. And I would rather have these conversations with a community and people that I care about.

Maybe you all are right, and I do feel marginilized. But that is what my argument is based on. If the womens climbing festival is packaged as a way to combat marginalization then it is ironic.

I do have a big ego. I am not going to change that. But I freely admit that I am not the smartest person in the world and I am not afraid to change my mind and admit when I am wrong.

Fajita Dave "Women deal with our shit on a daily basis" you are part of the big picture problem.

You're one of those guys that wants a white history month too, aren't you?

Greg, I can't speak for anyone else on here, and neither can you.

That's part of what you aren't quite getting, that females have had males "assuming" they know us better than we do, their opinion is the correct one, end of argument. Women have been secondary to men, glaringly so, a good chunk of my life. I do NOT think that is you, but you are coming off as mighty cocky in this. You don't have to go back to the suffragettes or slavery. Women you know, and care about, have stories you might coax out of them. Maybe.

I had my own business in an almost entirely male field, as it happens, so did a couple girl friends. We were constantly being asked if "I may speak to the boss", okay, or, "is your husband available". Not okay. One of my friends did not get a raise, that was saved for the guys, because "they had families to support". This was said to the face of a single mom. Same friend was trapped at the top of an extension ladder, waiting, and trying hard not to notice the ass jacking off in his car, just below her. Police didn't care. He didn't hurt her, did he?

One day I went to conduct some business at another shop. I knew some of the guys there, including the owner, and they knew I was also in their business. Every time I tried to speak, one of the gents would make comments about my breasts. Repeatedly. The other guys just tittered or stared at their shoes. Eventually the owner wandered in, I conducted my business, informed him he had a complete jackass on his staff, and, he just blew it off.

Things have improved vastly since then, but when "you" (generic) go anywhere at all down THAT path, or even glance that direction, yeah, you bet the gloves come off and the knives come out.

And, of course, most of you guys have your stories too. No question about it.

While I think it is outdated for them to highlight their event as "inclusive", bad use of language, I have ZERO problem with it being "exclusive", female only, stop whining, no one cares about your opinion, that kind of us only, sure, for a group of climbers, a bachelor party, anything like that.

Most all of us have more or less told you it isn't any of your business. What part of that is hard to grasp? So?

And, sir, you are nonetheless one of the guys I enjoy on here. Please stop digging yourself into this hole.

Best, Helen

Okay. Enough said. I will STFU about this.

Sounds like someone is bitter he didn't get invited to the party. Funny thing about internet threads, they can just disappear when you, the poster, are tired of hearing about the topic. Funny thing about sexism, it hasn't disappeared just because you're tired of hearing about it.

Hey, I like you. STFU, not the same as understanding. If that's short for "I get it", great. If it's short for "I give up", well. Your business, right? Not mine. Friends talk, even if its harsh. You asked, your friends replied.

How's the hand? Bunches of us care, you know. Hope it's doing okay for you.

Best, Helen

Greg, for the record I am female and I agree with you.

However, IMO the festival being for just women is a gimmick, as it would draw less attendance without a theme & exclusivity. They like to emphasize the words "badass women" as a marketing tactic. Climbing does not make one better or more badass than any other group of people.

Being exclusive can bring more membership- like "chicks with picks" & "chicks with nuts"- their prices are outrageous eg 2 days of sport climbing in Rifle for $600, 6 days of guided sport climbing in greece for $2,000 - just the guiding, not including transportation, airfare, food. I don't know any person dedicated enough to climbing to spend the time & airfare + boatfare to Kalymnos and want to pay $2k to only toprope. More like women exploiting women. So be glad you're not part of the group.

• *Deleting this post soon because I am tired of being antagonized by MPers for having a different view from the mainstream

sherb wrote:Greg, for the record I am female and I agree with you. However, IMO the festival being for just women is a gimmick, as it would draw less attendance without a theme & exclusivity. They like to emphasize the words "badass women" as a marketing tactic. Climbing does not make one better or more badass than any other group of people. Being exclusive can bring more membership- like "chicks with picks" & "chicks with nuts"- their prices are outrageous eg 2 days of sport climbing in Rifle for $800, 6 days of guided sport climbing in greece for $2,000 - just the guiding, not including transportation, airfare, food. More like women exploiting women. So be glad you're not part of the group. Deleting this post soon because I am tired of being antagonized by MPers for having a different view from the mainstream

Hey, of course it's marketing!

Thanks for popping on here and speaking up. I confess I didn't look the event up. Ah well. I suppose women fleecing people is progress, of a sort! Hah!

Greg's a good guy, far as I'm concerned.

H.

Old Lady H, my hand is doing well. I have been climbing quite a bit since the incident.

And "I will STFU now" as in I understand I was wrong. I am sure that my girlfriend would very much enjoy going to the Women's Climbing Festival.

I' didn't see that we're on to page two!

OLH! a fine way to put a point on it! ( understandably, necessary,)

Old lady H wrote:Greg, I can't speak for anyone else on here, and neither can you. That's part of what you aren't quite getting, that females have had males "assuming" they know us better than we do, their opinion is the correct one, end of argument. Women have been secondary to men, glaringly so, a good chunk of my life. I do NOT think that is you, but you are coming off as mighty cocky in this. You don't have to go back to the suffragettes or slavery. Women you know, and care about, have stories you might coax out of them. Maybe. I had my own business in an almost entirely male field, as it happens, so did a couple girl friends. We were constantly being asked if "I may speak to the boss", okay, or, "is your husband available". Not okay. One of my friends did not get a raise, that was saved for the guys, because "they had families to support". This was said to the face of a single mom. Same friend was trapped at the top of an extension ladder, waiting, and trying hard not to notice the ass jacking off in his car, just below her. Police didn't care. He didn't hurt her, did he? One day I went to conduct some business at another shop. I knew some of the guys there, including the owner, and they knew I was also in their business. Every time I tried to speak, one of the gents would make comments about my breasts. Repeatedly. The other guys just tittered or stared at their shoes. Eventually the owner wandered in, I conducted my business, informed him he had a complete jackass on his staff, and, he just blew it off. Things have improved vastly since then, but when "you" (generic) go anywhere at all down THAT path, or even glance that direction, yeah, you bet the gloves come off and the knives come out. And, of course, most of you guys have your stories too. No question about it. While I think it is outdated for them to highlight their event as "inclusive", bad use of language, I have ZERO problem with it being "exclusive", female only, stop whining, no one cares about your opinion, that kind of us only, sure, for a group of climbers, a bachelor party, anything like that. Most all of us have more or less told you it isn't any of your business. What part of that is hard to grasp? So? And, sir, you are nonetheless one of the guys I enjoy on here. Please stop digging yourself into this hole. Best, Helen

Equal time for all inclusive group get-togethers.
This should make you laugh , !
A few min. In to the climb, you hear: " How did they get the rope up there?"
'
youtu.be/Xb0hWYn6Ies
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Then there's the crushers sending video (nttawwt !)

https://youtu.be/M1tXsFl2Km0

Look what I found, Hit the word Journal in the topics line . . . For more exclusivity . . .

Old lady H wrote:Hey, I like you. STFU, not the same as understanding. If that's short for "I get it", great. If it's short for "I give up", well. Your business, right? Not mine. Friends talk, even if its harsh. You asked, your friends replied. How's the hand? Bunches of us care, you know. Hope it's doing okay for you. Best, Helen

Given the context, I interpreted your question very differently, but apparently Grog DOES have a girlfriend ;).

sherb wrote:Greg, for the record I am female and I agree with you. However, IMO the festival being for just women is a gimmick, as it would draw less attendance without a theme & exclusivity. They like to emphasize the words "badass women" as a marketing tactic. Climbing does not make one better or more badass than any other group of people. Being exclusive can bring more membership- like "chicks with picks" & "chicks with nuts"- their prices are outrageous eg 2 days of sport climbing in Rifle for $600, 6 days of guided sport climbing in greece for $2,000 - just the guiding, not including transportation, airfare, food. I don't know any person dedicated enough to climbing to spend the time & airfare + boatfare to Kalymnos and want to pay $2k to only toprope. More like women exploiting women. So be glad you're not part of the group. **Deleting this post soon because I am tired of being antagonized by MPers for having a different view from the mainstream

Wait...I'm confused. Why would excluding half the world's population and being "exclusive" draw MORE attendance? It seems like events like this, which target a very specific group of people (women who would prefer to only climb with other women), would probably be planning for LOWER numbers than a regular climbing festival, hence the higher cost (supply and demand). Also, I'm sorry that you feel antagonized by MPers for having a different view. Not sure why that is and I hope it doesn't happen here. I think it's important to point out that festivals like this are NOT for all women and that many women do share Greg's view.

Greg - the premise of your query - that women must either climb with men or each other, never both, never neither - actually says more about your privileged assumptions than I think you would prefer it to....

Ted, part of the draw of a club/event is the feeling of exclusivity. You feel like you belong by excluding others. Everyone wants to get into "the most exclusive nightclub" or Mensa or call themselves climbers (as opposed to non-climbers) to feel special. So the people who fit the criteria are more likely to sign up.

Now they got poor Grog pawing at the door, not letting him in. Even if it's boring, because he has been excluded he feels like something exciting must be going on. This further increases the perceived value of the event or group.

Right, but exclusivity by nature also demands low membership. Compare something like this to Red Rock Rendezvous or Rocktoberfest, and events like this don't even come close. That's why they have to charge so much - otherwise, the cost per head barely covers the overhead, which is probably considerable. They're not excluding men per se by accommodating every able-bodied female climber - they're targeting a very specific group (female climbers who would enjoy climbing only with other women). I would predict that a majority of the women who attend will be new climbers, because that's really the point of a festival like this - to attract women to try climbing by creating a safe space where they feel comfortable trying it. Most experienced female climbers probably wouldn't have a reason to go because they already have partners they're comfortable with.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote: Society wants white males to be more PC and accepting, but instead of demonstrating that value, it only gets reinforced by non-white male groups banding together. It makes me feel like I am the bad guy when I really am not. Everyone complaining this is a tiresome, boring topic...it is just getting started in society. So get used to it. Because PC has just begun and its going to get a lot thicker before it gets better.

Holy hell...

You're right, "PC" has just begun. Because "PC" has just recently been invented as a false enemy. "PC" is not a thing - what we have is marginalized groups that continue to fight for their seat at the table, or to sit at the table without being questioned. It's easy for those in power to hold those without to a high moral standard - one that they themselves did not abide by just a decade or two ago (and continue not to in some cases).

Nobody is attacking you personally by creating a support system for their minority group. Some groups need to band together to have a voice loud enough to make positive change. The only irony here is that you are invalidating their voice because you feel marginalized, demonized, and offended that they would question the status quo of white male privilege.

Ted, yep. "Beginners' climbing festival" wouldn't have the same ring.
OLH, love the word "fleece."

At the same time there are also other good reasons for having a women's climbing festival other than marketing. I don't believe being "marginalized" is one of them. How can half (or actually, over half) the population claim to be / let themselves be marginalized? IMO my body/mind by being female makes me more different from men than the supposed societal restrictions. I'm not some 50s housewife either; I have a career in STEM and never had any problems due to my gender (problems due to long hours/work stress is a different matter).

Reasons for a women's climbing festival:
-You are that stereotypical climbing girlfriend, and want to step out of your BF's shadow
-You live 2,000 miles away from your significant other (or BF doesn't climb) and don't want him to worry about your meeting guys (nor tempt yourself) so you climb with girls
-You just got out a relationship and want to be with just girls for a while, plus couples are annoying
-etc.

Did not include physical differences because your partner never forces you climb in the same way they did. An elite female climber climbs much differently from me. If it is a belaying weight thing, then form a weight group climbing festival. As for height/strength, most of my female climbing partners are 6-13" taller than me (I'm <5 feet). And the time I got injured, I was actually climbing with a stronger female who pushed me beyond my limit (having the best intentions of wanting me to improve).

There should be a men's climbing festival too, although there would be unfair outrage at that. Men suffer more after breakups because they don't have a close network of friends, and their suicide rate is higher than females (almost 3x higher). They also have similar rates of depression although the symptoms are not as readily recognized, and thus, they are ostrasized instead of helped.

For some reason everyone is concerned about young girls being empowered to do well in school (and probably teach to the female mind) and forge a future for herself, but have we forgotten about young boys? Now there are ~30% more females in college than men.

Men have been taught since youth to "suck it up" and "be a man" but no one should be dismissed and made to feel terrible about themselves like that.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:I am sure that my girlfriend would very much enjoy going to the Women's Climbing Festival.

Can you sign your right hand up for special clinics?

sherb wrote:Ted, yep. "Beginners' climbing festival" wouldn't have the same ring. OLH, love the word "fleece." At the same time there are also other good reasons for having a women's climbing festival other than marketing. I don't believe being "marginalized" is one of them. How can half (or actually, over half) the population claim to be / let themselves be marginalized? IMO my body/mind by being female makes me more different from men than the supposed societal restrictions. I'm not some 50s housewife either; I have a career in STEM and never had any problems due to my gender (problems due to long hours/work stress is a different matter). Reasons for a women's climbing festival: -You are that stereotypical climbing girlfriend, and want to step out of your BF's shadow -You live 2,000 miles away from your significant other (or BF doesn't climb) and don't want him to worry about your meeting guys (nor tempt yourself) so you climb with girls -You just got out a relationship and want to be with just girls for a while, plus couples are annoying -etc. Did not include physical differences because your partner never forces you climb in the same way they did. An elite female climber climbs much differently from me. If it is a belaying weight thing, then form a weight group climbing festival. As for height/strength, most of my female climbing partners are 6-13" taller than me (I'm <5 feet). And the time I got injured, I was actually climbing with a stronger female who pushed me beyond my limit (having the best intentions of wanting me to improve). There should be a men's climbing festival too, although there would be unfair outrage at that. Men suffer more after breakups because they don't have a close network of friends, and their suicide rate is higher than females (almost 3x higher). They also have similar rates of depression although the symptoms are not as readily recognized, and thus, they are ostrasized instead of helped. For some reason everyone is concerned about young girls being empowered to do well in school (and probably teach to the female mind) and forge a future for herself, but have we forgotten about young boys? Now there are ~30% more females in college than men. Men have been taught since youth to "suck it up" and "be a man" but no one should be dismissed and made to feel terrible about themselves like that.

It feels good to hear a narrative like this from a woman. As this thread has shown, if men speak like this they get labeled as ignorant, white male superiority, etc. Additionally, when males face gender related issues, we are basically told our problems aren't important because we are privileged, which makes sense to some degree but still isn't morally right.

But as much as I would like to take your side of the story for the truth, I believe that you've probably gotten pretty lucky and your experience doesn't reflect the experience of most women. I think the reality for most women lies somewhere between your experience and the experiences of women like Shelma or others who feel they need this kind of space.

I'd also like to put it out there that these women's narratives assume that all men climb with the stereotypical male style of climbing (powerful dynamic moves, no finesse, etc.), which is not true. In many ways, I climb more like a woman, being 5.4 with a negative ape index, and having relatively weak forearms, strong legs and good footwork. Main difference is that I have a lot more weight to carry than most women my size because I don't pay nearly enough attention what I and I'm lazy.