Plant based lifestyle. Anyone?

M Sprague wrote:I just made a nice beef stew that is simmering. An onion, some garlic, a can of smoked porter, carrots, mushrooms, peas, salt & pepper, cayenne, mustard powder, a few fresh bay leaves off my tree; it smells damn good. Time to whip up some buttermilk corn bread.

You're one sick individual, making my mouth water like that....i can smell it from here!

M Sprague wrote:I just made a nice beef stew that is simmering. An onion, some garlic, a can of smoked porter, carrots, mushrooms, peas, salt & pepper, cayenne, mustard powder, a few fresh bay leaves off my tree; it smells damn good. Time to whip up some buttermilk corn bread.

Dude. I'm just about to make cornbread to go with the chili I made earlier! Please tell me you're using a skillet. :D

Muscrat wrote: You're one sick individual, making my mouth water like that....i can smell it from here!

Aaahhh, food porn!

Christian B., when you crave fish or meat, be sure your Omega and B's are good. Easy to mess up. :-)

Robin like the bird wrote:Just gonna put this out there.. since I might be the only one out there who is acttuly raising food and truly understand the impact of different scales of agriculture...we are all fucked.. learn to make panchetta.. nod support your local small farmer in what ever way you can...!! redbirdacresfarm.com

Oh shit. Don't leave us hangin. I'm assuming you mean both produce and meats.

New shit has come to light. This is devastating information. Must watch!

youtube.com/watch?v=JPKFYMK…

Balanced diet, non-gmo venado, pineapple and veggies, yin to the yang JB,

Joseph Dul wrote:john, that looks astoundingly delicious! at this point i don't eat animal products out of habit and changed tastes, but i still enjoy the smell and look and can respect from certain angles. what specific veggies did you use? i want to replicate that

Thanks Joseph. Red onion, jalapeno with membranes removed, bell peppers, pineapple, tomato. Montreal steak seasoning. Let me know what you substitute for the meat. Hell, I might become "semi vegan" too. :)

To the original question...and some above had tried, I think the answer is, like most everything in life, complicated. The less meat we humans eat the less resources we take from the planet. As the population continues to grow at malthusian rates, there is something to be said for making this choice. There is also the philosophical/moral dilemma regarding the death of an animal for us to eat. My experience over the years would suggest that it depends. Depends on 1) why you are doing this, 2) your age, 3) level of activity, 4) availability of high quality food plants at reasonable prices, 5) your knowledge of tasteful preparation techniques, and 6) your ability to consume large amounts of varied and researched meat protein replacements. It takes more knowledgeable thought to do this right. Salads and fruit will not get it done for long. Someone above suggested it better to eat a balanced and varied diet. They were most likely the closest to being spot on. You did not state vegan or lacto/ovo diet. This makes a difference. My personal diet is changing with age as will yours. My meat intake now no longer includes wild or "smart" animals. So fish and cattle in moderation. But it feels better for me. Good luck with this and may your climbing cruxes be surpassed by the extra dietary gas propulsion system you will inevitably employ.

This thread is gold, people. Nice work. JNE gets the troll of the year award.

Regarding the original question, I have gone on a vegan diet twice for periods of four to six months. I did it not for ethical reasons, exactly, although once you make a commitment to such a diet it becomes much easier to see the abundant evidence that such a diet is much much better for the world.

Whether it is better for one's climbing-- or long term health-- is a much more difficult and complicated question.

For me, the goal was to stop eating crap of all kinds and to lose a few pounds. (I told myself that if I went vegan and found myself eating Oreos and potato chips I would give it up and go back to eating meat.) It worked, on both occasions. I lost about ten pounds in a hurry and then stabilized, found it difficult to lose any more, and over time got bored and felt a lack of energy (which may have been entirely in my mind) and eventually went back to eating meat. I subsequently tried counting calories for periods of time and found it to be a more effective way to lose weight.

So now I eat meat. But while I was a vegan I read enough materials about our system of agriculture to know that the system as it stands is truly unsustainable. I struggle with how to best support sustainable agriculture and to maintain a diet that works for me and my family. Buying local and attempting to find the most sustainable sources for one's own groceries may be better than nothing, but it is obviously limited as a solution. It is a drop in the proverbial bucket, and is only feasible for the relatively wealthy.

Roy Suggett wrote:The less meat we humans eat the less resources we take from the planet.

This reoccurring statement has been made repeatedly in this thread by others and is simply incorrect.

1. If we eat less meat we will eat more plants, so.....the amount of resources is not reduced. The burden is simply shifted to one source, never a good idea.

2. Cattle are grazed in areas where other agriculture is not possible or cost effective making better use of the land.

3. Vegan/animal rights propaganda is so far from "truth in agriculture" it's not even funny. Way more land is cleared to wheat/vegetable farm than to raise cattle. Ranchers prefer a mixture of trees and pasture. And...the water a cornfield drinks during the summer surpasses what cattle occupying the same area would use in ten years.

4. (Here's another place the propaganda machine is off the rails) Cattle and crops share the same fields, (that's right) in areas where land is already clear cut for wheat, corn or other crops, Crops (like corn, etc.) are grown during the summer growing season. Cattle are moved onto the fields to graze the stubble after harvest during the winter. This both reduces the need for feed for the cattle and the amount of area required for farming. The cattle eat plant material that would be turned under before the next crop and convert it to fertilizer rather than something that has to rot reducing stress on the fields and the amount of nitrates that are required to farm. This also reduces the impact cattle have on land that is set aside exclusively for cattle.

5. (One last thing) The amount of diesel fuel burned to plow and drill a field for one season's crop will run my work truck for an entire year. So the BS about green house gasses is all propaganda too. Reduction of trees, bull dozer exhaust when the field is cleared, smoke from the fire that burns for a week to get rid of the trees, tractor exhaust, combine exhaust, truck exhaust (harvest to consumer) fuel used in refrigeration and fertilizer production. Fuel used in fertilizer delivery/application (I could go on).....Where in all that is the environmental benefit over cattle again?

If you don't want to eat meat you don't have to. If you want to buy from small local farms that's great too (and actually helps). But don't blame the meat industry for things the plant industry is just as guilty of. JB

climbing friend,

No.

i crush you with my vegetable.

Ted Pinson wrote:What are those cows being fed? I can guarantee it's not grass, because that's not sustainable for mass consumption either (hence why grass fed beef is so much more expensive). Most animals raised for cultivation are fed a mixture of different grains, primarily of which is corn, which (you guessed it!) requires vast tracts of land (aka: the entire Midwest).

You're forgetting about the 10's of millions of acres under BLM jurisdiction, in addition to the National Forest lands. Recall the L is for livestock. Those herds of cattle are eating.....mostly native grasses and other plants. That's why in Wyoming or Utah or Nevada you need 400 or more acres per cow. Yes, some percentage do get shipped to the mid-west feed lots to fatten up before sale and slaughter, but not all by any means.

That's what I was getting at in my post. There's a lot of land that simply isn't suitable for cultivation without massive irrigation infrastructure. That's why the all land is fungible argument falls apart.

Damn, people are posting a lot of uninformed bullshit on here.

First I'll work on your actual question. I did the vegan thing for about 6 months in college. Felt great, lost a lot of fat. You do have to supplement B-12, which you can't get from an all veg diet. Better than a B-12 supplement is just a multivitamin, as B-12 supplements have 5000% of your daily B-12, so most of what you pay for goes down the toilet.

Steph Davis is vegan and still climbs hard: stephdavis.co

I stopped being vegan, because it became so difficult to do while traveling. If you spend much time dirtbagging, this becomes a real problem. But I guess if you weren't super strict you could get by doing just vegetarian for a time.

Being vegan will not harm your climbing, just eat a healthy vegan diet and don't over depend on soy.

John Barritt wrote: This reoccurring statement has been made repeatedly in this thread by others and is simply incorrect.

Actually, it's pretty obvious and not really controversial unless you're bored on a message board.

John Barritt wrote:1. If we eat less meat we will eat more plants, so.....the amount of resources is not reduced. The burden is simply shifted to one source, never a good idea.

Again, no. It requires vastly more resources to raise a cow to maturity, slaughter it, and eat it than it does to grow and eat plants. This is basic biology/ecology:
learner.org/courses/essenti…

Notice how the bottom of the pyramid is larger than the top? This means that there is more available energy (which can support a larger population) the lower you are on the food chain.

John Barritt wrote:2. Cattle are grazed in areas where other agriculture is not possible or cost effective making better use of the land.

This is actually a fair point that Marc raised, but it's also misleading; this land was cleared and repurposed for this. It might work now, but is not sustainable as the Earth's population continues to grow.

John Barritt wrote:3. Vegan/animal rights propaganda is so far from "truth in agriculture" it's not even funny. Way more land is cleared to wheat/vegetable farm than to raise cattle. Ranchers prefer a mixture of trees and pasture. And...the water a cornfield drinks during the summer surpasses what cattle occupying the same area would use in ten years.

This is where your misunderstanding seems to stem from. In fact, this is exactly the problem! Why do you think we're growing all of that corn? (Hint: it's not popcorn)

John Barritt wrote:4. (Here's another place the propaganda machine is off the rails) Cattle and crops share the same fields, (that's right) in areas where land is already clear cut for wheat, corn or other crops, Crops (like corn, etc.) are grown during the summer growing season. Cattle are moved onto the fields to graze the stubble after harvest during the winter. This both reduces the need for feed for the cattle and the amount of area required for farming. The cattle eat plant material that would be turned under before the next crop and convert it to fertilizer rather than something that has to rot reducing stress on the fields and the amount of nitrates that are required to farm. This also reduces the impact cattle have on land that is set aside exclusively for cattle. 5. (One last thing) The amount of diesel fuel burned to plow and drill a field for one season's crop will run my work truck for an entire year. So the BS about green house gasses is all propaganda too. Reduction of trees, bull dozer exhaust when the field is cleared, smoke from the fire that burns for a week to get rid of the trees, tractor exhaust, combine exhaust, truck exhaust (harvest to consumer) fuel used in refrigeration and fertilizer production. Fuel used in fertilizer delivery/application (I could go on).....Where in all that is the environmental benefit over cattle again? If you don't want to eat meat you don't have to. If you want to buy from small local farms that's great too (and actually helps). But don't blame the meat industry for things the plant industry is just as guilty of. JB

The problem is that all you are describing is NOT the meat industry. If that was how all of our meat was raised, we wouldn't have a problem, but we also wouldn't have 99c hamburgers. More than 80% of meat produced in the US is produced in massive factory farming operations in which cattle are fed corn and other grains grown in huge fields in the Midwest. We grow ridiculous amounts of corn in the US (basically the entire Midwest is corn and soy) to feed the massive demand of factory farming. THESE are the lands that could be put to more efficient use growing sustainable crops fit for human consumption, but the farm bill basically ensures that farmers will be incentivized to grow nothing but corn.

While, I am not defending industrial agriculture one bit... I think there is big steps people are missing when it comes to how plants are grown, on a industial scale. ...it is unfortunate, but the vast amount of fertilizer that grows the veggies is coming from either oil, or poop from animals and most likely animals from very mistreated places..

If we start looking at fats like canola ... and there impact to be made.. seriously

Or nutrition.. a pound of grass fed lamb, goat or beef, and the fat profiles.. is gonna be much more densely nutritious the. Most of the veggies people are eating...

More over we probably should be eating less meat then most of do, but way better quality

Www.redbirdacresfarm.com

Ted Pinson wrote: Again, no. It requires vastly more resources to raise a cow to maturity, slaughter it, and eat it than it does to grow and eat plants. This is basic biology/ecology: learner.org/courses/essenti… Notice how the bottom of the pyramid is larger than the top? This means that there is more available energy (which can support a larger population) the lower you are on the food chain.

Again, one last time, just because I must like shooting bullets into the sky at this point: If the land must be modified in any way in order to grow the crops, but it needs no modification whatsoever in order to raise cows or other animals, the land should be used to raise cows or other animals because this will be the most efficient use of the land because it will use the least imported resources of any kind. If the land can be easily irrigated, or is naturally irrigated, plants can be grown there because this will be the most efficient use of the land because it will use the least imported resources of any kind.

Now, quick quiz questions:

1) What is the underlying pattern here?

2) How does the vegan philosophy fit into this framework?

climbing friend,

the cows and livestock produce the amount of methane from assholes unbelievable, one of leading causes of global warming, not just a hoax by the chinamen to make U.S. noncompetitive.

the cows and livestock they are eating plants and more water than crops, requiring long series of extra steps and resources, including driving on your tractor, and slicing the bleeding carcass in halfsies while the guts and excrement they would falling on floor in factory where your cousin works who he just gets out of prison, but not all of it falls on the floor, and some of the shit is in your meat you are eating.

Ted Pinson wrote:Why do you think we're growing all of that corn? (Hint: it's not popcorn)

Right, it's corn syrup. It's in everything, go to your kitchen, throw everything with corn syrup in it on the floor. Your fridge and cabinets will be damn near empty. Ranchers don't like buying feed trust me I know. The cows aren't eating all the corn. We are. Cows eat grass, wheat, corn stubble and hay for the most part. Dairy cows get more feed than beef cattle but still are out to graze daily. When was the last time you stood on a ranch, in a feed lot or in a corn field? As for all that "what the Midwest is like" talk look at where I live. JB

With all due respect, it is a "conservation natural resources 101" fact that ag meat production consumes more resources than does ag crop production. But that was not the question originally. We need more winter crags and less time to spend here!

John Barritt wrote:Right, it's corn syrup. It's in everything, go to your kitchen, throw everything with corn syrup in it on the floor. Your fridge and cabinets will be damn near empty. Ranchers don't like buying feed trust me I know. The cows aren't eating all the corn. We are. Cows eat grass, wheat, corn stubble and hay for the most part. Dairy cows get more feed than beef cattle but still are out to graze daily. When was the last time you stood on a ranch, in a feed lot or in a corn field? As for all that "what the Midwest is like" talk look at where I live. JB

A voice of reason. Also don't forget all that nice ethanol and government subsidies for growing corn.