5.10 offwidth is harder than 5.12 sport!

Ted Pinson wrote:are the Gunks grades similar to any sport climbing area you've been to? Does a 5.6 at the Gunks feel like a 5.6 sport climb at Rumney? People call the grades at a lot of trad areas "sandbagged" or "old school," but really I'd say they're just "trad."

Ted, there are many factors at work here.

Routes at the Gunks are often replete with lots of easy climbing separated by very distinct, very short cruxes. Some of the cruxes even have no-hands rests below. To earn the grade, the crux moves therefore have to be very hard. So climbers used to pure endurance routes may lack the power to pull the crux and will find them stiff. And some of the cruxes can also be devious. Add in the weight of a full rack, and boom, you're sandbagged. Some of the newer guidebooks and the Gunks App have brought some of the listed ratings more in line with what you might find elsewhere.

Older areas like the Gunks, Cathedral Ledge in NH, etc. were established while the YDS was capped at 5.9. Grades bumped up to 5.9+ for a while before the YDS become open-ended (i.e. allowing 5.10 and higher ratings to be given). And so there are a lot of routes with the added "+" that really should have been rated harder but the community was reluctant to allow for full numerical jumps.

It has been a very long time since I did any of the entry grade climbs at Rumney so I can't compare moderates accurately with the Gunks, but my recollection was that Rumney felt easier. At the harder (for me) grades, I think they are pretty close. I also think that some of the classic areas in Europe like Ceuse have tough grades and that is all sport.

- Alex

simplyput wrote: I never really thought of it like that. 7a in the Font boulder system translates to about (operative term) V6 while 7a sport translates to about 5.11d...I'm not sure that v6 feels like an 11d crux, but maybe...

Folks should bear in mind that the French boulder grades ARE NOT THE SAME as French route grades. Yes, a 7a route in France is usually pretty close to 5.11d, and 7a+ is 5.12a, etc. But a 7a Font boulder like le Toit de Cul de Chien has a first pad, one finger pocket (you can stack two) on a huge horizontal roof. Clearly NOT a 5.11 move. Back in the day, they translated that 7a to a V5. But back then, V3's were actually more like 11d, not like the modern 11b equivalent.

- Alex

I really appreciate the lucid comments in this thread.

One of my mentors once said . . . "The first rule of offwidth: DON'T offwidth."

If you can climb 5.12 sport, it helps the offwidth technique tremendously, following this rule. Of course this isn't applicable to all OWs, but it really does help. Lumpy's Crack of Fear is one example of this. Vedauwoo has many more.

It helps to have nerves of steel, since you're face climbing, but placing giant cams.

OW rating: 5.10.
Psychological rating: 5.12

Hank Caylor wrote:I did the 2nd ascent, 2nd try easily, of the "Silver Salute" 13a at Vedauwoo. For fuck alls sake I couldn't lead any 10' of "Horns Mother" as the warm up though.. And the shit they call 10+ in the desert, HAH! And yes, I'm an excellent trad climber, probably don't train near enough for the size cracks I end up on, but still, the title and point of this thread is spot on.

again for the wee sport climber i may be that shit looks run out!! good on ya!

i was shitting bricks and hanging all over the place on traveler buttress 5.9 at lovers leap when i had just onsighted an .12a/b sport route the same day!!

title is hands down accurate.

you OW climbers are bad freaking ass

"Harder" is a relative and subjective term. But I think there are fewer who can/do climb 5.10 OW than 5.12 sport.

I like offwidths.

Kevin DB wrote:I like offwidths.

You are a sick, sick, man.

psakievich wrote:"Harder" is a relative and subjective term. But I think there are fewer who can/do climb 5.10 OW than 5.12 sport.

I have no problem with 5.10 OW but a 5.12 sport tends to be overhanging and I stuck at anything overhanging, give me anything 5.12 not overhanging at all and I can get up it no problem.

i also like to add that 5.10 OW is way harder than V7!

Hellenor has never climbed V7, so it was pretty much a doomed comparison from the start.

I'm going to see how hard some particular 5.10a OW is today. Wish me luck!

Offwidth is fun! (Mostly)

Ray Lovestead wrote:In Vedauwoo, the grades were all developed with a gentlemen's agreement that 5.12 was unobtainium.

From my experience, and from the stories of others, the grades of the highest standard stuff at Vedauwoo (which may or may not correspond with the highest rated climbs) have always been employed to impart maximal butt-hurt upon said gentlemen.

Ray Lovestead wrote:Scarpelli followed this very strictly for 30 years of development.

Scarpelli is no gentleman, which is in no way a bad thing, at least regarding the above quotes usage of the word.

Ray Lovestead wrote:5.11D OW in Vedauwoo is 5.13 anywhere else.

Yes, yes, excellent. Now, which pill will it be? DonkeyElephant or elephantDonkey?

Ah, well, I should had added subtext that stated I have never climbed a Scarpelli 11D or 13 "anywhere else".

And no, I don't picture Scarpelli wearing a monocle and sipping Brandy out of a snifter.

Ray Lovestead wrote:And no, I don't picture Scarpelli wearing a monocle and sipping Brandy out of a snifter.

Correct. Scarpelli is not a manchild who sits in heavily mortared brick basements full of sycophants, nor campfires ringed by them, nor tie into ropes connected to them, in order to conspire on the lies needed to be incessantly repeated so that they can all come to the agreement that they do not incessantly profess the putrid smells of donkey and elephant shit to be the scent of manna from above and thus vociferously agree that donkey and elephant shit taste good, that the people who eat it are #1 by virtue of their shit eating proclivities, that they will happily eat shit every day, that they will be participatory in and worshiping of the process and delivery of the shit, and that they will constantly cover their faces and bodies with so much donkey and elephant shit that everyone around them can equate them with pure shit. He just goes and climbs rocks, and is happier for doing so. The gentlerman should all learn to follow his example.

Careful with the BAWSNESS JNE

If Worm drive and Big Pink are 5.11b, Squat is 5.9+

Sport routes? Who cares? Wide is for hardpeople. Sport is for anorexic prancers and children. ;^)

Good to "see" you Justin. Hope all is well in wild and windy Wyoming.

Lou Cerutti wrote:Careful with the BAWSNESS JNE

Lol. You perhaps misunderstand.

"'The lady doth protest too much, methinks' is a quotation from the 1599/1600 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare.

Original Use
The line, like most of Shakespeare's works, is in iambic pentameter.[citation needed] It is found in Act III, Scene II of Hamlet,[full citation needed] where it is spoken by Queen Gertrude, Hamlet's mother.[citation needed] Hamlet believes that his father, the king, was murdered by his uncle Claudius (who then married Gertrude). Hamlet decides to stage a play, the Murder of Gonzago, that matches Hamlet's theory in its basic storyline, in order to test whether viewing it will trigger a guilty conscience on the part of Claudius. As Hamlet, Gertrude, Claudius and others watch the play-within-the-play, the Player Queen, representing Gertrude, declares in flowery language that she will never remarry if her husband dies. Hamlet then turns to his mother and asks her, "Madam, how like you this play?", to which she replies "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Gertrude (who may or may not be aware that the queen in the play is a stand-in for her) is saying that the Player Queen is being too effusive. Hamlet replies, 'O, but she'll keep her word.'"

From: The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Hope all is well for you as well, Will, and good to see you too.