To Pass or Not To Pass (and where to do it) This Is The Question

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: So here's the deal. It's not a dick move to climb something you want to climb. It's not even a dick move to climb something vastly beyond your ability. That's climbing. The dick move is when this screws up other parties. If you allow people to pass as you're fiddling with your experimental puffer fish pro, it's cool. If you insist the route is yours and everyone beneath you must go your speed, that's a problem. This goes for learning to aid, learning to climb fast, bringing a big group, or just climbing slow. You've got allow other parties to move at their own speed too. Funny story. Several years ago I was climbing Half Dome RRNF. I was wearing baby blue spandex with pink squiggles and a wife beater. We were having a fantastic day and near the top of the chimney I caught a party above us. The leader said that when he first saw me in those spandex he was really hoping I wasn't fat. Then he said that as we got closer he figured I wasn't or I'd be moving slower. We laughed. We gave them back some slings they'd spaced at a belay, and everyone had a good day. Moral of the story, invest in spandex.

yeah but did you pass them?

john2.71 wrote: More like 5.3. I put 5.6 my profile so the smug prick admins on MP won't feel so bruised and need to boost their egos by shitting on other climbers abilities. I guess it didn't work. What a wonderful "community", where the admins are a-holes to the contributors, posting their climbing grades as a way to invalidate their contributions.

I agree that the grade you climb is hardly a measure of your contributions. But you 'contributions' have spoken for themselves and they speak volumes of naivety.

If 5.6 is the limit of your climbing then that would suggest a limited experience in the broad range of conditions out on various cliffs and probably limited experience in long trad routes. You are welcome to contribute but do so within the realms of your knowledge. You won't find me delving much into aid discussion because my experience there is small.

Jim Turner wrote:As a newer trad climber, I've never passed or been passed. But I have a hypothetical question. What happens when a party is slow and they know it, and want to let a faster party pass. But they also see a third party below that might also want to pass. How many faster parties do they let pass, especially if they know they are already pressed for time to make the summit? Maybe this is rare and therefore a moot point?

Fair question.

Ultimately you should not let yourself be slowed down much by people passing you. Nobody owns the rock, but you shouldn't have to wait just to let people pass. (But if its just a short period and they are clearly faster then being polite and waiting is a good thing.) If it is a climb with few opportunities to pass then really those behind should choose another route or wait.

There have certainly been a few occasions that I have been glad for my early wake up. Putting my shoes on for a 12 pitch route and two more parties arrive behind me.....

T Roper wrote:yeah but did you pass them?

Of course. That's why he was concerned I might be fat. He didn't want to have to look up to that.

Most of the hikers up top wouldn't talk to me because they were either scared of me or thought I was European. I did manage to get digits but there were too many geographical differences to pursue it.

john2.71 wrote:It's not a dick move to climb something you want to climb. Irrespective of your climbing level or whether you brought your bro or a backpack or what day of the week it is.

I've disagreed with you a fair bit but I have to agree with this. Back in the day some climbers were on routes for weeks, classic routes that many now do in a day...

Dave Schultz wrote: DO NOT CLIMB THAT ROUTE UNTIL YOU CAN BE COMPETANT AND NOT FUCK UP EVERYONE ELSE'S DAY ... or be cool letting everyone else pass you, and you finish in the dark? ... or if you do go for it anyway, be prepared for everyone to think you are (rightfully) and fucking idiot and give you dirty looks and make snide comments and pass you and all that other bad shit ... not a fun day for you, so go climb something else.

The fact that there is even debate over whether and in what conditions climbers have the right to get on a climb that pushes their limits, and the notion that less experienced climbers should avoid routes at certain times to avoid inconveniencing faster climbers, is fucking absurd. So is the idea that less experienced climbers should defer to any impatient prick who thinks that being a faster climber gives them precedence or that a slower climber is automatically incompetent..

By the way John thank you for your support, it's nice of you. I agree that people who post on MP forums tend to be harsh and condescending, and I don't believe it's representative of the climbing community as a whole. You definitely need to have a thick skin before posting just about anything on the forums..

As for the comment by Josh Janes calling out my personal climbing history, it is hard not to find that a bit presumptuous and condescending, "No offense intended" or not. But I could see how that can be interpreted different ways, and I'm not going to guess as to his intentions. I do think judging whether someone's opinions are valid based entirely on the grade someone climbs and a cursory look at their MP profile is simplistic and not necessarily helpful..

And as someone pointed out, I think the views of less experienced climbers is very relevant to this discussion, if nothing else so that all you fast impatient climbers who think we're wrong can understand the perspective of those you're trying to pass. And by the way, the title of this thread is 'To Pass or Not To Pass (and where to do it) This Is The Question'. Where does it say this discussion is limited to 'long routes in the west'?

Dan Africk wrote: The fact that there is even debate over whether and in what conditions climbers have the right to get on a climb that pushes their limits, and the notion that less experienced climbers should avoid routes at certain times to avoid inconveniencing faster climbers, is fucking absurd. So is the idea that less experienced climbers should defer to any impatient prick who thinks that being a faster climber gives them precedence or that a slower climber is automatically incompetent.. By the way John thank you for your support, it's nice of you. I agree that people who post on MP forums tend to be harsh and condescending, and I don't believe it's representative of the climbing community as a whole. You definitely need to have a thick skin before posting just about anything on the forums.. As for the comment by Josh Janes calling out my personal climbing history, it is hard not to find that a bit presumptuous and condescending, "No offense intended" or not. But I could see how that can be interpreted different ways, and I'm not going to guess as to his intentions. I do think judging whether someone's opinions are valid based entirely on the grade someone climbs and a cursory look at their MP profile is simplistic and not necessarily helpful.. And as someone pointed out, I think the views of less experienced climbers is very relevant to this discussion, if nothing else so that all you fast impatient climbers who think we're wrong can understand the perspective of those you're trying to pass. And by the way, the title of this thread is 'To Pass or Not To Pass (and where to do it) This Is The Question'. Where does it say this discussion is limited to 'long routes in the west'?

I'll bet you rappel off sport climbs too.

Would it be manslaughter if party that passed dislodges a rock or droppes a piece of gear and kills someone below in the party they just passed?
I will never ever again be below someone in alpine or let someone pass me for that reason. No one owns the rock, but if I was there first, you better f@#$ing ask me if you can pass or go climb something else.

Experimental pufferfish pro? Who's releasing that and when?

When I was younger a partner and I caught up with an uncommunicative party on Angels Crest in Squamish just past the Acrophobe traverse. My partner waited for about 10 minutes while they chatted and reracked then setup a belay behind them. Brought me up and we waited another 10 minutes for the second to leave. I racked up and waited another ten minutes before setting off. Caught up to their second right before the next belay, and waited for them to get clipped in. Then I climbed right by them and went up to the next belay. They were a bit miffed but we wanted to get off the route and down the Chief before dark so I just went for it. I felt a little bad about it but felt it wasn't as big a dick a move as holding us up when they appeared to be in no hurry. Probably the only time I've been involved in an unokayed pass in over 30 years of climbing.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:Would it be manslaughter if party that passed dislodges a rock or droppes a piece of gear and kills someone below in the party they just passed?

The answer is no. Something like this happened years ago in Yosemite. A party was denied permission to pass, found a way to pass anyway, and then dropped a rock on the original party. The result wasn't a fatality but a permanent and serious brain injury if memory serves. The injured party sued and lost. The court's perspective was that having another party drop a rock on you, even if you asked them not to pass, was one of the risks you undertake when you go climbing.

In the Alps, a slow party is judged to be an objective danger and will be passed whether the slower party is ok with it or not. No one is going to ask, the faster party will just blow by, clipping the slower party's gear and pulling on their ropes. I know someone whose ankle was used as a handhold (she was seated and belaying at the time).

Things haven't gotten to that point yet in the US, and we can hope that they never will. But just as a party out ahead on unstable ground might be a danger to a party below, a slow party could be a danger to a faster parties below who are not equipped for overnight stays and do not wish to be exposed to afternoon thunderstorms. In this regard, I agree with Josh that the perspective of 2--3 pitch climbs doesn't illuminate the real issues, and that passing on bigger climbs can certainly be appropriate. The transitions can usually be handled amicably if both parties are grounded in reality and aren't suffering from outsize egos.

john2.71 wrote: yeah, and I bet you climb with a harness on.

Yes, but not when I'm bouldering.
Seriously though, your snark went totally over my head. Can you try to be less subtle?

Mike Mellenthin wrote:People are talking about long routes in the west because the OP specifically asked about a long route in the west.

Thanks, Mike, for reminding what this thread is about. I agree, passing on a 2-3 pitch route doesn't make sense, as you can see the party in front of you climbing - you can judge how fast they move and make the call whether to give them more time or to move to another route.

The situation described in the original post and shown on the picture is pretty much clean-cut:
- a 12-pitch long route,
- half of the first pitch does not require any gear,
- either two pitches of the first three can be linked,
- the crux is on pitch 4, so it is an obvious bottleneck place. No matter how fast you climb people will catch up with you on that pitch, because it is much harder than the first 3 pitches.
- pitch 4 is a dihedral, so there's no space there to pass,
- it didn't look like the first party's follower was having issues with removing the gear, just moving slower in a harder terrain,
- starting with pitch 5 there are multiple large ledges and plenty of space to pass a slower party (personally I'd ask them to stop after pitch 5 and I'd link pitches 5 and 6),
- it was early in the day (between 8 and 9 am),
- the weather was good and improving,
- there is no cellphone reception in the Hulk area, so unless the second party had a satellite phone there was no chance of them finding out about a family or any other emergency (unless it was a brown alert),

I am aware that in Alps passing a slower party by pulling on their gear, rope, ankles ;) is done and people don't ask whether they can do it or not, but... do we really want to follow that example and apply it to an easier route with one crux pitch?
- We are not talking about a 12-20 pitch route or a big wall experience, where times really matters.
- We are not talking about a sustained 5.11 or harder climb and it makes sense to keep the context in mind.
- I get that when you keep dragging behind a slower party pitch by pitch, and they keep refusing letting you pass, at some point you may be forced to do so at any, but still safe, cost, but... this is not this situation. Knowing how this route goes (pitch 1 - class 4 with a 5.8 bulge, pitches 2 and 3 are 5.8, pitch 4 is 5.10a/b) I think the 4th pitch was the first one when the two teams met.

I think at the end of the day we all agree that passing on a 2-4 pitch long route in most cases does not make sense, but passing on a long route or on a big wall quite often is a necessity. So it is more about how and where to do it; it is about communication with the other party (whether you are asking or just letting them know) and selecting the safest and the best possible space to do it.

Also, what's the point in trashing people who climb at lower than us level? They won't "bother" us on our 5.14 sends, so we can give them a bit of a noob leeway when we descent from the heights to mingle with mortals. If it is too much to ask, maybe for each area we should establish a climbing body of the local wise men, who would exam and pass certifications, same way as it is done in climbing gyms, but instead belay or lead certified they would say "5.whatever certified". In some ways it would help the economy, as chalk bags would need to be re-design to have more space to attach the laminated cards with the certification.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:Would it be manslaughter if party that passed dislodges a rock or droppes a piece of gear and kills someone below in the party they just passed? I will never ever again be below someone in alpine or let someone pass me for that reason. No one owns the rock, but if I was there first, you better f@#$ing ask me if you can pass or go climb something else.

or, more likely they will just pass you on some chossy variation and drop rocks on you... that's usually how that sort of thing goes.

Olek S wrote:If it is too much to ask, maybe for each area we should establish a climbing body of the local wise men, who would exam and pass certifications, same way as it is done in climbing gyms, but instead belay or lead certified they would say "5.whatever certified". In some ways it would help the economy, as chalk bags would need to be re-design to have more space to attach the laminated cards with the certification.

Have an upvote.

mediocre wrote:3 pages and this can be summed up by the life moto, "Don't be a dick."

+1
end of thread. Everyone please, bury the hatchet stop posting in this thread and go out and climb.

Mike Mellenthin wrote: I'm done arguing this but this is just simply untrue. If you know you are going to thrash and still get in peoples way, that's lame. Note I said thrash. Not moving at the pace a 5.8 leader moves at on 5.8 (edit: post above says it better than me). By the way, your chance of getting passed by a free soloist on anything 5.7 or easier in Yosemite with a walk off is like pretty damn high. That's just life.

I would agree to an extent. I had the very unfortunate experience of having to practice aid climbing on the Nose and getting in the way of four parties. I roped up with someone who I thought knew what they were doing, but quickly learned pitches 1 - 2 of the Nose seemed to be the first time he lead aid. He seemed solid(ish) on our practice days, but once he actually got up on the big stone things went 180. I felt like a total dick belaying this dude, telling the four parties waiting for us that the best I can do is haul ass as the second and then get off the thing and get out of their way.

Moral of the story, learn how to climb on routes without a line or at least let them pass. I dont mind a slow party that lets others pass. Everyone has an equal right to climb a given route, but it's rude to hold up several parties because you're trying to learn how to jug on the most classic climb in the park.

I think the more interesting comparison between climbers encountered here, and in real life, is that most 5.6 leaders you meet in real life grasp the amount they don't know yet, whilst on MP...well, you know the rest of that story.

rgold wrote: The answer is no. .

The correct answer is it depends. Laws are extremely regional throughout the world, even from one city to the next city, even if those cities are only a few miles apart but cross state lines. Every state has a different definition of what manslaughter consists of. Then of course we have to consider the police and the state's attorney. You might end up getting questioned by a detective that takes one look at you and thinks you're guilty or the detective might be a climber himself and totally get that it was an accident. Again, totally situation dependent. What would never get you put into prison in one area could get you 20 years in another area.

Aside from manslaughter there is also involuntary manslaughter which often has language to the extent of killing another person through negligence. The state absolutely could try to argue that asking for permission to pass, getting denied permission, choosing to pass anyway, and then dropping a rock on another person directly resulting in their death is negligence. At the minimal, I think it is entirely possible that you could be charged and brought to trial if the state really wanted to press the matter.

To counter your Yosemite argument, this exact thing has already happened in climbing, albeit not rock fall but equipment failure. As the result of Tito Traversa's death, the French government charged three people with manslaughter because the quickdraw was set up incorrectly. So yea, it's already happened before.

dpmclimbing.com/articles/vi…

Also, you're talking about a civil case, not a criminal case. California has a long recreational use statue that grants civil immunity to many parties participating in hazardous sports, and rock climbing is explicitly named in the statute. The state has no law or statue that I am aware of granting immunity from criminal penalties arising from climbing accidents, only civil ones. Also, that's specific to California and many states do not grant any form of immunity to anything or anyone relating to rock climbing.

I do agree that charges would be unlikely, but certainly not impossible.

20 kN wrote: The correct answer is it depends. Laws are extremely regional throughout the world, even from one city to the next city, even if those cities are only a few miles apart but cross state lines. Every state has a different definition of what manslaughter consists of. Then of course we have to consider the police and the state's attorney. You might end up getting questioned by a detective that takes one look at you and thinks you're guilty or the detective might be a climber himself and totally get that it was an accident. Again, totally situation dependent. What would never get you put into prison in one area could get you 20 years in another area. Aside from manslaughter there is also involuntary manslaughter which often has language to the extent of killing another person through negligence. The state absolutely could try to argue that asking for permission to pass, getting denied permission, choosing to pass anyway, and then dropping a rock on another person directly resulting in their death is negligence. At the minimal, I think it is entirely possible that you could be charged and brought to trial if the state really wanted to press the matter. To counter your Yosemite argument, this exact thing has already happened in climbing, albeit not rock fall but equipment failure. As the result of Tito Traversa's death, the French government charged three people with manslaughter because the quickdraw was set up incorrectly. So yea, it's already happened before. dpmclimbing.com/articles/vi… Also, you're talking about a civil case, not a criminal case. California has a long recreational use statue that grants civil immunity to many parties participating in hazardous sports, and rock climbing is explicitly named in the statute. The state has no law or statue that I am aware of granting immunity from criminal penalties arising from climbing accidents, only civil ones. Also, that's specific to California and many states do not grant any form of immunity to anything or anyone relating to rock climbing. I do agree that charges would be unlikely, but certainly not impossible.

SCREW LEGAL! think morally. how would any of you feel if you were responsible for someones death or injury?

Given that was 12 year old with instructors someone should probably face manslaughter but the people they list with charging it is stupid imo.

I don't know the details but it sounds like they are saying if I make and sell acid and someone buys it and drinks it and dies I will get charged with manslaughter?

Maybe they are going after them because there was no instructions with the product (which I find hard to believe)? And than they are going after the store that sold the product??? Really If I sell a knife to someone and they use it to murder someone / kill themself does that mean I will face manslaughter charges in France?

Now the manager is still pushing it on the charge of being responsible... but the instructors there I could see maybe getting charged as they were probably responible for checking and making sure all the gear was properly setup and safe.

I know of a 5.14c climber kid who probably came close to dying because he didn't know how to properly inspect his rope and the core was completely blow. But does that mean you charge the rope manufacturer, the shop that sold the rope, and whoever was belaying for manslaughter if it broke and he died?