To use the belay loop or the tie-in loops?

Nate Solnit wrote:Not to open up another can of worms, but how do people feel about personal anchors girthed through belay loops. I was taught that all soft materials go through the hard points since they're reinforced to take the nylon on nylon wear, but I see tons of people girthing slings and PAS systems through the belay loop. Thoughts?

Inspect your gear so that your retire gear when it wears out

And it wont matter which way you girth hitch you PAS to

Someone on MP asked metolius awhile back ...

I asked this same questions to Metolius last year and this was their response.

It is perfectly fine to attach the PAS to your harness either way. I prefer to attach to the belay loop when doing single pitch and I girth hitch it through the tie in points when doing multi pitch.

Thank you for contacting us directly. The internet gear forums unfortunately disseminate massive quantities of inaccurate information. Always contact the OEM for proper use instructions.

Best regards,

Pat Carr
Metolius Customer Service


mountainproject.com/v/belay…

;)

So...back in the day, former types of harnesses (especially ones used in the alpine) required the leg loops to be joined to the waist belt via a carabiner joining them together, as per design.

Today, these harnesses are not produced as often/ as readily available. Some of us young'ins might be compelled to call it "old school."

Clipping into your modern harness with a carabiner through the two tie in points is as relevant of an action as the "slip, slap, slide" technique of belaying. Perhaps, if you are in the alpine often, and you are used to performing body belay after body belay, that technique of securing your second makes sense. With a plate device...the slip slap slide is obsolete.

Point: Two very valid actions are currently being mis-applied, out of context. Old schoolers somewhere along the way keep doing what they were used to doing and pass that knowledge on to the next generation - innocently enough.

Go out. Get educated. Watch videos. Ask Questions. Seek the instruction of a certified guide/instructor. This will help future generations pass on the most accurate information possible.

All the best,

Kshon

cdec wrote: Soft stuff through tie in points. Hard stuff in belay loop.

I doubt any manufacturer can be found that supports this distinction, and bearbreeder has already indicated that Metolius says either way of attaching a PAS is fine.

The idea that you shouldn't girth-hitch a PAS to the belay loop seems to be another one of the questionable conclusions drawn from the Skinner tragedy. In my experience, wear caused by girth-hitching a PAS to the belay loops is negligible---in fact undetectable---over any reasonable lifetime of a harness.

I prefer attaching the PAS to the belay loop because (1) I get a little extra length from it, (2) I mostly climb with double ropes so already have two loops of rope through the tie-in points and things are pretty crowded with a PAS in there too, and (3) the way I carry the PAS tends to compress the harness if the PAS is threaded through the tie-in points.

Naturally, there is no harm in inspecting the belay loop periodically. The potential wear point is not at the girth hitch but rather at the point opposite the girth hitch on the belay loop. This is easily inspected since it isn't covered by the girth hitch.

Because of the stiffness created by the belay loop bar tacks, the girth hitch can't really be placed anywhere, there are effectively two opposite locations where the girth hitch can be located. The same belay loop stiffness means that when a carabiner is clipped, the part of belay loop rubbing on the bottom tie-in will typically be at the same point over and over again. In other words, the kind of wear to the belay loop some people worry about from girth-hitched PAS's happens anyway in ordinary use.

The belay loop can easily be periodically rotated 180 degrees to distribute the negligible wear to two points rather than just one. If there is a girth-hitched PAS, it can be shifted as well.

Bottom line: whether you girth-hitch a PAS to the tie-in points or to the belay loop is strictly a matter of personal preference with no safety implications either way as far as I can tell.

Climbers really need to be worrying about other things.

rgold wrote: I prefer attaching the PAS to the belay loop because

For wall climbing I hitch my adjustable daisies through the tie in points. But for free climbing, I hitch the PAS to the belay loop as well. I recommend to my partners that they do not hitch slings through their tie in points, except for wall climbing. I blew through the tie in points on my Safe Tech Waldo in nine months by hitching skinny slings through the tie in points. By locating the lings on the belay loop instead, the wear is spread out among an infinitely rotating loop, as opposed to concentrated on the same location on the tie in points. Metolius was nice enough to repair the harness for me for free, but after the repair Metolius recommended that I do not hitch slings through the tie in points for the obvious reason that it can wear them out.

However, the wear is not as noticeable with larger slings. A skinny PAS or Dyneema sling will wear out the tie in points far faster than a homemade 1" webbing sling.

I should have mentioned that the personal experience I referred to was exclusively for multipitch free climbing. When tethers (PAS or daisy) are used for wall climbing there is more weighting of them, a lot more if they are used to test placements.

The double belay loops on some wall harness are there for attaching a pair of daisy/aider combos, one to each loop, so the manufacturer's intentions about tether attachment seem clear in that case.

John Wilder wrote:At the end of the day, modern harnesses test out at around 15kn, while the belay loop routinely clocks in between 30-45kn in tests. As others have noted, it's called a belay loop for a reason. As are your tie-in points. It's almost like the manufacturers designed, tested, and named parts of harnesses in such a way that users would know what to do with them. In the grand scheme of things, following direction of the companies that manufacture life saving equipment is probably a better idea than listening to some dude just because he says he knows whats up.

The strength of the belay loop being stronger than the tie-in point is moot because the belay loop is attached to the tie-in. Think weakest link. Each attachment-point has its purposes, and I agree with you in that using equipment per the manufacturer's recommendation is wise.

The belay loop can easily be made redundant by using your tie-in loop as well. This is useful even in a single pitch environment because your tie-in prevents you lowering the climber off the end if the rope is too short.

Realistically, though, if you inspect your gear even every couple of months you will end up retiring your harness long before the belay loop comes anywhere near breaking or cutting. If you think it's fine not to inspect PPE that often, the result will do the gene pool a favor.

youtube.com/watch?v=g730mHD…

You will notice that the oval really isn't effected much, but the newer pear design is. So triloading makes some carabiners weaker, by as much as a factor of 2. Well that does sound dangerous, but how much force is really exerted on the carabiner?

Petzl tests showed that only about 2KN of force, so is it more risky, probably a little. Which is probably why the manufactures of harnesses recommend using the belay loop.

If you are really worried petzl makes a carabiner that is designed to be triloaded.

Now that we've gone a bit OT...I find girth hitching stuff to tie in points annoying. If I weight a daisy, it cinches them together, then if I move about it works its way loose again, then weight it and the cinch together again. You end up with a beefy belay loop, a rope, and two daisies threaded through that tiein point when aiding. That's a lot of crap. I like the extra length of going through the belay loop, as well as it feeling more tidy. PAS goes through belay loop to.

Now as to the belaying side of things...

chockstone.org/forum/Forum.…
One was a result of the gri gri handle being touched by the belayers body (he did the strange thing of clipping belay biner through both loops of his harness, which means there's a 50% chance of the grigri handle touching the body), there was no friction through that but he had deep burns on both hands and slowed me.

That's the only incident I've heard of, the poster is pretty widely known and respected. Regardless of what one may think of the correctness of that stated reason, in a society where having a bit of a pot belly is common, clearance is an interesting point to consider.

r m wrote:... in a society where having a bit of a pot belly is common, clearance is an interesting point to consider.

IME, the majority of climbers who do clip through the tie in points also tend to be the same climbers with the pot belly problem;)

Bonneville wrote:So the guy who taught me to climb has always instructed me to run my locking biner/belay device through the tie-in loops of my harness as opposed to the belay loop. He said it's a stronger/safer connection. Well upon doing the research while shopping for my first new harness I noticed on REI's website under the section on 'how to buy a climbing harness' it states that the tie-in loop should only be used to tie into the rope while climbing and to never use this for the belay device because in doing so you 'greatly reduce the strength of the carabiner'. It also states that the belay loop is the only load tested piece on the harness. Should I discontinue using the tie-in loop for my locking biner/belay device? Any insight into this is greatly appreciated! Thanks! Here is the article from REI for reference... rei.com/learn/expert-advice…

@Bonneville - The only configuration where clipping the attachment points together via carabiner might be on some older models of alpine harnesses:

the black harness here requires a carabiner or other connector to join the connection points together, thus forming a belay loop....

However, with a modern harness - no. There is no need to clip your belay device's carabiner to anything other than your belay loop. What some folks are talking about is accurate: the wider you connecting point, the larger (read:wider) the angle that the carabiner needs to be.

if you are in an alpine setting, the Alpine BOD may be appropriate for you. You should seek instruction on how to properly use this piece of equipment along with understanding the appropriate context for its use. Much like someone using a body belay at a sport crag - or slinging their cams with water knots... it is not that the technique is inappropriate. The decision to apply the technique in a given context may be less appropriate.

Another appropriate use of the tie-in points would be attaching a tether, or aiders for jugging. In special cases, where one is belaying two seconds where each climber is on their own single rope, the leader may choose to clip one of the rope ends to the swami section of her harness, differentiating this rope from the rope she is being belayed on by tying the rope she is belayed on into both tie-in connection points of her harness.

I concur with bearbreeder, bgardener, and John Wilder's comments. Seek proper instruction if you're not sure how to use certain pieces of gear as they interact with other pieces of gear - aka conencting hard and soft goods. Well said SunnyD.

Also, seek instruction on the use of the gear you own from a certified professional or from the manfucaturer's specifications. They do translate their user guides into 27 different languages by law and put a lot of energy into basic caveats of their gear. Those paper pamphlets aren't just for the trash can.

That we will educate ourselves on the gear we carry. As with all climbing gear - there is what they have designed it for, and then what you could use it for. We all want to think we are the latest innovator of some shortcut or innovative technique. Often we are not - but it's that we are mixing application tool and context into a hodgepodge that isn't sensical.

Hello Everyone,
at my local climbing gym the climber side of the rope has a carabiner on it so you dont have to waste time tying in. On their harnesses there is only one loop. However having my own harness Im not shure if i should clip into the belay loop or tie in points when climbing.

Thanks, Stan

I'd be clipping in to the belay loop to avoid the cross loading potential with using the tie in points, but I'm new at this so what do I know.

What purpose does the blue quick link serve here?

StanTheMan wrote:Hello Everyone, at my local climbing gym the climber side of the rope has a carabiner on it so you dont have to waste time tying in. On their harnesses there is only one loop. However having my own harness Im not shure if i should clip into the belay loop or tie in points when climbing. Thanks, Stan

Generally speaking, it doesn't matter for a TR. People have been doing it both ways for years now. The forces involved are so low even a cross loaded biner wont fail, in general. And generally the biner wont cross load anyway.

The belay loop is also more than up to the task of holding you in that situation also (on any modern harness - this wasn't always the case). Some may say why add the extra element, but generally speaking your not going to have a problem.

I wouldn't consider tying in that way on lead, however. Always tie in directly with the rope.

Shane1234 wrote:What purpose does the blue quick link serve here?

It securely ties the harness tie in points together. Will be stronger than a girth hitch (if you could even girth that dog bone), and more secure, and less prone to cross loading than a locking biner (and probably stronger if it does happen). Also is much smaller profile (there's a lot going on there, so bulk can be a concern).

StanTheMan wrote:Hello Everyone, at my local climbing gym the climber side of the rope has a carabiner on it so you dont have to waste time tying in. On their harnesses there is only one loop. However having my own harness Im not shure if i should clip into the belay loop or tie in points when climbing. Thanks, Stan

Read the instructions that came with your harness.

Or read this thread you've revived.

Or google the topic for any of the dozens of times this subject has been discussed.

WHAT?!?! REALLY?!?! Guys....

Seriously no one yet?... Here it goes...

YERRRR GONNNNNAA DIE (probably not) lol

StanTheMan wrote:Hello Everyone, at my local climbing gym the climber side of the rope has a carabiner on it so you dont have to waste time tying in. On their harnesses there is only one loop. However having my own harness Im not shure if i should clip into the belay loop or tie in points when climbing. Thanks, Stan

Alright, is it one of the Petzl gym harnesses? Harnesses of this "rental fleet" design usually only have one attachment point. This single point is for both tying into the climbing rope, and to belay someone. You'll notice that this single attachment point is made redundant with a reinforcing/protective sheath (brown or green webbing encasing the harnesse's core material at that attachment point - see attached photo).

It seems like an odd/non-standard practice for your gym to use carabiners for attaching oneself as a climber to the rope system, but if this is the direction they're going, do they at least have 2 opposite and opposed lockers, or one locker + one other carabiner?)

You'll notice no matter what - if the harness is design intentionally to have one loop or two loops, these loops will be oriented so as to keep you upright during a fall. Clipping oneself in by their belay loop to a climbing rope for climbing could potentially/likely result in rotation upon falling/lowering and really, according to most manufacturer specifications, is intended for belaying only.

Hope this helps.

photo: Waist loop has been removed for clarity/retiring. Note the single (redundant) tie-in/belay loop combo of the Petzl gym harness.
Fraying on the attachment loop warranted that this rental harness become retired.

blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Even if the belay loop is 90pct cut it will still hold 3 kN.


This one held 21 kN (I think if yours looked like this you would likely be getting a new harness but it is still perfectly safe)