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Belay loop and PAS
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By Josh Allred
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 6, 2011
P3 on Nutcracker.

Do manufacturers approve of using a PAS girthed around your belay loop or do you have to use the two tie in points?

We were wondering if it would be less strong or if add to wear and tear.


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By Josh Allred
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 6, 2011
P3 on Nutcracker.

www.arcteryx.com/pdf/Harness-Hangtag-Web.pdf

Might of found my answer. 3 page on the right hand column.


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By J. Surette
From Denver, CO
Dec 6, 2011

I asked this same questions to Metolius last year and this was their response.

It is perfectly fine to attach the PAS to your harness either way. I prefer to attach to the belay loop when doing single pitch and I girth hitch it through the tie in points when doing multi pitch.

Thank you for contacting us directly. The internet gear forums unfortunately disseminate massive quantities of inaccurate information. Always contact the OEM for proper use instructions.


Best regards,

Pat Carr
Metolius Customer Service


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By bearbreeder
Dec 6, 2011

J. Surette wrote:
The internet gear forums unfortunately disseminate massive quantities of inaccurate information. Always contact the OEM for proper use instructions.


im sure there will be a lot of denials ;)


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By RedRockRat
Dec 6, 2011
All I survey. <br />

TO the best of my knowledge most manufactures recommend using your two tie in points for any self anchoring system. The use of a belay loop to connect a PAS, Daisy, or sling to a master point seems to cause serious strain on the bar tacks.
This said I generally see one in three people with it around their belay loop.

If you want to put it there consider backing up the loop with a piece of 5ish mil cord. Give you a few extra kN.


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By mike526
From schaumburg
Dec 6, 2011

I thought i heard some where that the way Todd Skinner was killed was from his anchor rubbing through the belay loop over the years.

correct me if i'm wrong


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Dec 6, 2011
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

I only use one for single pitch stuff. If I'm doing multipitch I anchor in with the rope. It's strong, simple, and less static than a PAS. I girth hitch my PAS to my belay loop. I tried girthing it through my tie in points but it scrunched my points together like hanging on a rope and was uncomfortable. Probably not the best reason to not use the tie in points, but whatever.

It's important to note that a PAS is not designed to take a dynamic load. If you use one, don't use it for any type of protection. When I anchor in, I weight it slowly and keep it weighted. I still like it better than a daisy though because each loop is rated for 18kn if I remember correctly. If you check your belay loop regularly for wear which you should anyway, it's a good piece of gear in certain scenarios, just like most other gear. Some people love 'em, some people hate 'em.


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By Andy Novak
From Golden, Co
Dec 7, 2011
Living the High Life.

muttonface wrote:
It's important to note that a PAS is not designed to take a dynamic load. If you use one, don't use it for any type of protection. .


Are you sure? I was under the impression you could use a PAS as a regular runner in a pinch? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.


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By Matt N
From Santa Barbara, CA
Dec 7, 2011
OTL

Andy Novak wrote:
Are you sure? I was under the impression you could use a PAS as a regular runner in a pinch? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.


psst - your rope is the dynamic link.


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By JasonMills
From Albuquerque, NM
Dec 7, 2011

mike526 wrote:
I thought i heard some where that the way Todd Skinner was killed was from his anchor rubbing through the belay loop over the years. correct me if i'm wrong


From what I remember, he knew his belay loop was worn out and decided to climb on it anyway.

What I've always been taught, and what I teach, is that the belay loop is designed to rotate so the wear on it is spread out. When you girth hitch an anchor daisy to it, it prevents it from rotating--defeating the purpose. I've always taught that it's alright to do it there, just don't leave it there long term. But I still prefer to use both attachments points for my own peace of mind.


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By Josh Allred
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 7, 2011
P3 on Nutcracker.

. The belay loop is engineered for extreme structural strength
(>15kN/ 3350 lbf), equal to the
main harness structure, and when used
correctly for belaying and rappelling
provides a safer two-point load. Do
not employ any attachment system
that causes undue direct friction to the
belay loop or either of the tie-in points.
Never girth hitch anything to your belay
loop. This can focus abrasion in a single
location

I found this right before work and didnt have time to post but, ArcTeryx doesnt seem to like it.


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By John Wilder
From Las Vegas, NV
Dec 7, 2011

harnesses are specifically designed for any nylon to be attached via the tie-in points- it's why they are reinforced with extra ballistics material. the belay loop is meant for metal.

structurally its fine. its the wear issue and that so many folks leave their PAS's girth hitched to their belay loop- hiding any potential wear.

i'm actually surprised Metolius says its okay to use the belay loop- i would have expected them to not recommend it, especially seeing how safety oriented they always seem to be.

and yes, you can use your PAS as a runner- its the static fall onto the PAS that will break it, not a fall with a rope in the system.


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By rgold
From Poughkeepsie, NY
Dec 7, 2011
The traverse out to the Yellow Ridge on the Dogstick Ridge link-up.  Photo by Myriam Bouchard

Personally, I've already got two half-ropes tied into the harness points, so I girth-hitch the tether to the belay loop. There is certainly no structural reason not to do this, and I think the wear considerations are way overblown because of the Skinner tragedy.

I dislike the harness tie-in points for two other reasons. One is that the tether, even when unweighted, can draw the tie-in points together, tightening the harness and so slightly impeding movement. The other is that I think both Sterling and Metolius are making the tether too short by one link, and I get that extra bit of length back by using the harness belay loop.

The wear considerations come from a concern that repetitive weighting of the belay loop in exactly the same orientation will concentrate wear at the girth hitch and at the diametrically opposite point on the belay loop that rubs against the leg-loop tie-in point. In five years of regular free-climbing use (1-4 days per week) I don't see any signs of localized wear. I think you have to be doing a lot of aid climbing, jugging, and rappelling (using the tether as a rap extender) to create wear that is even visible, much less of concern.

Even so, there are two things you can do that are prudent. Periodically shift where the tether is attached to the belay loop, so that the same positions aren't being worn down, and when you do this, take a moment to inspect the belay loop for wear. As far as I can tell, these measures are probably unnecessary, but they are easy enough to do and eliminate even the miniscule chance that excessive localized wear could result from girth-hitching the belay loop.


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By Josh Allred
From Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 7, 2011
P3 on Nutcracker.

Seems to me there are two schools of thought.


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By bearbreeder
Dec 7, 2011

youll be fine using it as a regular runner if theres rope in the system

the rope provides the dynamic nature

think about it ... people use shorty dyneema quickdraws all the time as a "runner" ,,, those basically have no stretch ... people also clip those really non-dynamic fixed chains and cables that are used as permanent pro on sport routes ...

as the kind folks at metollius said ... the internet is full of misinformation ...


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By Dave Cummings
From Grand Junction, CO
Dec 7, 2011
me on my redpoint

If you look at Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson on the 2011 Reel Rock they are girthing most everything around their belay loops but they area also tying a piece of webbing around the belay loop as a back up and to help with abrasion. I have done it both ways and I am not sure what I like best. When I talked to BD they told me you can do it either way but recommend using the tie in points.


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By Bang
From Charlottesville, VA
Dec 7, 2011
Thanks Hank Caylor!

Would this post shed some light to our discussion here? www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?58937-girth-hitch-belay->>>


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By Chris D
From the couch
Dec 7, 2011
Sign near the Third Flatiron

muttonface wrote:
...the use of HMPE like Spec­tra ® or Dyneema ® in the con­struc­tion of daisy chains is sim­ply a bad idea.


I have one of these Sterling Chain Reactor PASs, so I guess all those issues are moot?

If so, my cheapness has paid off once again.


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By Dave Cummings
From Grand Junction, CO
Dec 8, 2011
me on my redpoint

I think we are talking about all daisy chains and PAS systems at this point. I think that at the end of the day both your belay loop and your two tie in points are both safe and it is a personal preferance. I use my tie in points when I am wall climbing with daisy chains. I don't use the PAS system because most of the time I just use 2 extendable quick draws opposite and opposed on my belay loop. Thats my preference. Inspect all your equipment on a regular basis for wear and tear and be safe out there.


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By JasonMills
From Albuquerque, NM
Dec 8, 2011

Dave Cummings wrote:
I think we are talking about all daisy chains and PAS systems at this point. I think that at the end of the day both your belay loop and your two tie in points are both safe and it is a personal preferance. I use my tie in points when I am wall climbing with daisy chains. I don't use the PAS system because most of the time I just use 2 extendable quick draws opposite and opposed on my belay loop. Thats my preference. Inspect all your equipment on a regular basis for wear and tear and be safe out there.


+∞


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Dec 8, 2011
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Chris D wrote:
I have one of these Sterling Chain Reactor PASs, so I guess all those issues are moot? If so, my cheapness has paid off once again.


That's not me, that's a quote; however, I do lean in that direction. After seeing this vid: dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/ I definitely look at a nylon PAS as a better piece of gear than a dyneema/spectra model. +1


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By Phill T
Dec 8, 2011

muttonface wrote:
That's not me, that's a quote; however, I do lean in that direction. After seeing this vid: dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/ I definitely look at a nylon PAS as a better piece of gear than a dyneema/spectra model. +1


take these videos with a grain of salt, they are the ABSOLUTE worst case scenario that is not possible in real world climbing scenarios. The body is not a rigid 150lb brick, nor are you connected to the PAS by a steel cable. There is ALOT of impulse gained from the the human body/harness compared to a steel cable.

not saying its a good idea to take a static F2 onto your PAS, but I think its being blown a bit out of proportion.


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