To use the belay loop or the tie-in loops?

To be risky at committing a mistake of aiding with bringing back an old discussion of topic, I am sorry, but I am kind of new here and did find this a little interesting.

You will not to "cross-load" the caribiner by clipping it onto the two tie in points. When the system becomes weighted bearing the two loops become as one, loading the caribiner in only the two expected places, rope and loop(s).

The benefit of the belay loop is to make the orientation of the caribiner and the belaying device, or abseiling device, line up without the twist that they get when the caribiner is with the two tie in points directly. That is all. This is the reason why any time you tie in or girth hitch you use the two tie in points. Only use the belay loop with a caribiner and a device.

To point to the fact, the belay loop does add another point of possible failure. But to consider this is stupid.

D-Roc wrote:WHAT?!?! REALLY?!?! Guys.... Seriously no one yet?... Here it goes... YERRRR GONNNNNAA DIE (probably not) lol

Overworked. Trite. Overused by noobs. No longer even vaguely funny. Most of us have moved on.

The belay loop is the strongest thing on most harnesses. That said, there are zero problems with belaying off the tie-in points.

And, as risks to worry about in climbing go, this one doesn't even make the list. The odds are like a million times better you'll drop a climber or a belayer will drop you compared to any risk associated with belaying off your tie-in points vs belay loop.

What you don't want to do, however, is to permanently girth hitch any kind of leash to your belay loop which has killed someone, albeit with a hard-used ultralight harness.

Healyje wrote:What you don't want to do, however, is to permanently girth hitch any kind of leash to your belay loop which has killed someone, albeit with a hard-used ultralight harness.

Unless the manufacturer of the lanyard specifies doing exactly that. Example: the Beal dynamic lanyards.

J Marsella wrote:Come on Mark, YGD is never unfunny.

Maybe if you haven't seen it 10000 times and in almost every thread. That's what I meant about noob usage. The masters use it judiciously and carefully.

J Marsella wrote:Because, let's be honest: we are all "gonna die," and we're just wading through the futility of existence, trying to create the illusion of meaning; hoping to convince ourselves that our finite lives somehow have an impact in an uncaring and endless universe...

Wow. That got metaphysical fast!
:-)

I believe the specific instance Healyje is referring to is a PAS (or any sling, really) that was kept tied on the harness for an extended period, allowing wear to go unnoticed until it finally caused a failure.

Lesson being: check your gear periodically, and maybe don't leave slings tied to your harness.

Seth Jones wrote: Isn't that how Todd Skinner died?

Sound's like it contributed, although definitely not the primary cause, it would seem to me:
supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

Key points (emphasis mine):

article wrote:Skinner’s harness was worn, that his climbing partner, James Hewitt, commented on its poor condition, and that Skinner agreed the harness needed replacing.

article wrote:Skinner’s partner reiterated in interviews with rangers that he observed the loop “had been about 20 percent worn through three days prior,” to the accident. Faherty wrote that he, too, “also observed that the harness was extremely frayed and worn where the belay loop should run through the ‘swami belt’ and the leg loops.”

article wrote:Faherty also found a sling girth-hitched to the broken belay loop, which Hewitt believed had been in place for some time and prevented the belay loop from rotating and absorbing wear evenly. “Also broken was the keeper strap on the leg loops,” ranger Faherty wrote. Loss of the keeper strap would free the leg loops to saw against belay loop, often in the same spot, given Skinner’s harness set-up.

Lot's of lessons to be learned there.

Brian L. wrote: Sound's like it contributed, although definitely not the primary cause

It was the primary cause of the failure.

The way I was taught...metal (carabiners) on the belay loop, woven material (climbing rope, girth-hitched slings) through the tie in loops.

Healyje wrote: It was the primary cause of the failure.

I read that a bit differently:

1) Not replacing an admittedly worn harness.

2) Cut keeper straps for the leg loop allowed a sawing action on the belay loop

3) Permanently girth hitched sling kept the sawing on the same spot.

1 and 2 would eventually have caused a failure, regardless of 3, so I attributed those higher priority. #3 seems to have expedited the process, but didn't cause the failure by itself. From the ranger's report, it sounds like the loop didn't fail where the sling was tied (since it was found still girth hitched on the belay loop).

Solution = simple. Take your gear off of your harness after each use + inspect your harness prior to and after each use.

Simple.

Brian L. wrote:From the ranger's report, it sounds like the loop didn't fail where the sling was tied (since it was found still girth hitched on the belay loop).

You're right, the belay loop didn't fail where the sling was girth-hitched to it - it failed 180 degrees around the belay loop from the point the sling was girth-hitched to it - i.e. girth-hitching the belay loop insured a sawing action between the belay loop and the tie-in points would only happen at one spot on the belay loop, the point opposite the girth hitch.

Try it for yourself. Girth hitch a sling to your belay loop and then weight it. Where's the load and point of moving friction on the belay loop? And where will that point always be so long as the girth hitch is on the belay loop? The failure was due to the fact that the girth-hitched sling didn't allow for the belay loop to move randomly around on the tie-in points and so focused all the friction and wear onto a single point on the belay loop.

If you're looking for a contributing factor then the main one is the fact it was an ultra-lite harness which is to say it was the harness equivalent of skinny 8mm slings and really had a limited working lifespan which Todd clearly pushed to the limit. Ultra-lite woven goods are only good for a couple of years and then you're pretty much gambling.

And that's also the difference between the harness Todd was wearing that year and uber-burl harnesses like the ones Metolius puts out where the belay loop is so stout it's probably not much of a risk; but it's still a bad practice regardless of who's saying it (including Metolius).

They call it "belay loop" on purpose.

They call 'em "tie-in loops" for purpose.

Seems like we're arguing semantics's here Healyje, or you're misunderstanding me.

Anyway, I agree with you: permanently girth hitching a sling to your belay loop is a bad idea. Don't do it.

You know what a worse idea is. Not checking your equipment to make sure it is proper working order.

Old harnesses, the ones that came before thick attached belay loops, required you to use a big wide 'pear' biner for your belay attachment. But new harnesses with the loop are designed to take the force of falls, etc. on that loop, I've been told by both eqimpent reps and well known climbers that it is actually the strongest piece of material on your entire harness. When ropes are frozen and you can't safely tie in to your harness connections,,,it has proven safe to clip in to the belay loop with a locking carabiner to climb ice routes. Not suggested for every day,, but definitely a safe alternative.
Agree with many earlier posts saying that you do NOT clip a big carabiner through your current modern harness tie in points. Some are hardly more than the diameter of a fat rope, and have no 'give' for the levering that a solid carabiner might put on your harness parts in a fall.