Ashima GriGri Fall

bearbreeder wrote:most folks with a grigri always belay in the fast feed method ... despite petzls instructions not to stay "parked" in that position except when feeding clips to be fair with thicker ropes one is often forced to use the fast feed method as the grigri wont feed ATC style however many folks - grip the entire grigri rather than just with the index under the lip - keep the thumb parked on the cam all the time rather than keeping it off except when actually feeding - dont have the reaction to pull down hard on the rope on a fall if they havent practiced with an ATC ... rather they just keep gripping the grigri without pulling down on the brake and expect it to always catch - some also death grip the climber side of the rope sharply if you do use a grigri constantly in fast feed method because of rope thickness ... dont do the above and its a very good idea to practice catching whippers with an ATC so that you keep that brake hand reflex with all these assisted locking devices, belayers are becoming an "accessory" to the system ... folks expect the device to do the work every time no matter what unfortunately as these accidents (there have been others with well known folks) show ... these devices can be misused, and in certain circumstances not catch at all the DAV, BMC, Petzl, etc ... have whole videos and articles dedicated to the various "failure" modes and proper techniques of the many assisted locking devices out there as these devices become more popular, when these accidents do happen ... folks will likely be left scratching their heads and asking ... "why didnt the autolocking device catch??? ... its supposed to be safe!!!"

+1
For a variety of reasons, I finally stopped climbing with one particular partner. The final straw was when I took a fall and was successfully caught and held by a Gri-gri. The problem was this partner immediately said "WOW! This thing is fantastic! It's totally idiot-proof!!! I didn't have to do anything!!"

saxfiend wrote: It's "assumed" because you have zero first-hand knowledge of the accident in question, nor of how a ATC could drop someone either. In 11 years of climbing, I've been dropped three times, all of which occurred with a tube device; contrasted with thousands of belays using gri-gri with zero drops. JL

Seems like you have done a very poor job of choosing belayers. Be careful!

I'm thinking it was probably the scenario at 4:08 in this video: Also explained in this video youtube.com/watch?v=V9hsWjA…

Probably i see tons of people belaying with the method at 4:08 even pro's doing it like that *cough* Honnold *cough*

In my experience, beginners can drop the leader with any device, but locking and assisted-locking devices seem to be more involved when experienced belayers drop a leader.

bearbreeder wrote:most folks with a grigri always belay in the fast feed method ... despite petzls instructions not to stay "parked" in that position except when feeding clips to be fair with thicker ropes one is often forced to use the fast feed method as the grigri wont feed ATC style however many folks - grip the entire grigri rather than just with the index under the lip - keep the thumb parked on the cam all the time rather than keeping it off except when actually feeding - dont have the reaction to pull down hard on the rope on a fall if they havent practiced with an ATC ... rather they just keep gripping the grigri without pulling down on the brake and expect it to always catch - some also death grip the climber side of the rope sharply if you do use a grigri constantly in fast feed method because of rope thickness ... dont do the above and its a very good idea to practice catching whippers with an ATC so that you keep that brake hand reflex with all these assisted locking devices, belayers are becoming an "accessory" to the system ... folks expect the device to do the work every time no matter what unfortunately as these accidents (there have been others with well known folks) show ... these devices can be misused, and in certain circumstances not catch at all the DAV, BMC, Petzl, etc ... have whole videos and articles dedicated to the various "failure" modes and proper techniques of the many assisted locking devices out there as these devices become more popular, when these accidents do happen ... folks will likely be left scratching their heads and asking ... "why didnt the autolocking device catch??? ... its supposed to be safe!!!"

+1,000,000

In the hands of a capable belayer, a Grigri gives an extra margin of safety. It can NOT, however, make up for bad belaying.

Yesterday while climbing in Pine Creek every person I saw belaying all took their hand off the brake end of the rope at some point while belaying. All have been climbing for years.

Why do they insist on calling her the greatest female rock climber?

What does it really matter what device was used?
FACT: A competent climber was dropped by a competent belay.
FACT: This is an accident caused by complacency. It could (and has) happen on any device.
FACT:Devices don't fail, belayers do. (Even used improperly, an auto assist device will work, while failing to assist, just like a tube device).
Let's not forget the real lesson to be learned. And this isn't a gear issue.
It should be a good reminder to all climbers to PAY ATTENTION!!! Handling the "soft end" of the rope is WAY MORE IMPORTANT than clipping the sharp end.
I'm glad to hear that she's gonna be okay, but my thoughts and positive energy are definitely with her father/belayer because I'm sure he's giving himself hell right now.
PAY ATTENTION out there dudes.
I'll end with a Dean Caldwell quote.
"It's a game we all chose to play, but if you lose, you pay with your life."

djh860 wrote:Why do they insist on calling her the greatest female rock climber?

V15 at age 14 for one.
newyorker.com/magazine/2016…

nytlive.nytimes.com/womenin…

climbing.com/news/ashima-sh…

Edit to add: ....and because publications like those above need readership and one of the best ways to attract readers is with a sensational headline and writing style.

The problem with calling a kid the greatest of all time is that until they are fully grown some routes will be harder for them and some routes will be easy for them.

There are routes when she is fully grown will likely be harder or impossible for her to climb. Small hands and smaller body makes some moves easier for someone and sometimes being bigger helps. There is no magic way to say who is better or worst because of this.

Me and my friends are in no way the greatest climbers in the world but my friend who has a good foot of reach on me can sometimes climb things I can't but 9 out of 10 times I can climb a route when he can't.

Robbie Mackley wrote:What does it really matter what device was used? FACT: A competent climber was dropped by a competent belay. FACT: This is an accident caused by complacency. It could (and has) happen on any device. FACT:Devices don't fail, belayers do. (Even used improperly, an auto assist device will work, while failing to assist, just like a tube device). Let's not forget the real lesson to be learned. And this isn't a gear issue. It should be a good reminder to all climbers to PAY ATTENTION!!! Handling the "soft end" of the rope is WAY MORE IMPORTANT than clipping the sharp end. I'm glad to hear that she's gonna be okay, but my thoughts and positive energy are definitely with her father/belayer because I'm sure he's giving himself hell right now. PAY ATTENTION out there dudes. I'll end with a Dean Caldwell quote. "It's a game we all chose to play, but if you lose, you pay with your life."

no ...

a grigri with the camming defeated may well not have enough friction to stop a lead fall ...

theres been MPers who have tested it with the cam taped down ... they reported that they could barely hold body weight especlally on the thinner slicker ropes now more common

and it really doesnt matter how good your braking skills are on a cinch with a worn out pin ... theres no bend in the rope on that device

an auto assiste devices used improperly does not necessarily work ...

thats the attitude that leads to folks treating these devices as "auto catchers"

;)

Saw Ashima at the gym today, she was climbing and looked to be doing well. It's a terrible thing that happened to her, and it is a good reminder to be attentive and to really check yourself and your partners. After all, "an astute belay can save the day"!

bearbreeder wrote: no ... a grigri with the camming defeated may well not have enough friction to stop a lead fall ...

Except you could probably hold Ashima with your teeth. She's not a large person.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Except you could probably hold Ashima with your teeth. She's not a large person.

neither are many belayers.

I think this was a brain fart. She rarely falls and she is so damn fast poppo is usually just lowering over and over again. I wouldn't describe it as complacency or incompetence, but literally just user error. I feel really bad for her. The mental aspect is the biggest part of climbing and it must be a barrier in some way with her dad. I hope she can heal strong and fight through it to maintain their relationship.

She's also much bigger than the little girl you saw at real rock a few years ago, and any belittling of her skills due to size is not justified or warranted. We are all facing our own bodies as an adversary through out our climbing careers so I don't see what difference it makes.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: Except you could probably hold Ashima with your teeth. She's not a large person.

but can you hold my PHAT lard AZN azz with yr teeth ... im monstrously obese

;)

She probably topped out the route, and sat to lower...

The GriGri is designed to auto-cam when the upward pull is tugged and severe, such as a fall. But a slow easing into it is exactly when it fails. It's a funny thing. Plus she weighs nothing. The device did not sense anything and did not do anything.

Beyond this, there must have been a communication error.

Stupid gym climbing.

I hope the GRiGri didn't sense anything ! ;) All this time I have been throwing mine in a jumble at the bottom of my pack.

Russ Keane wrote:She probably topped out the route, and sat to lower... The GriGri is designed to auto-cam when the upward pull is tugged and severe, such as a fall. But a slow easing into it is exactly when it fails. It's a funny thing. Plus she weighs nothing. The device did not sense anything and did not do anything. Beyond this, there must have been a communication error. Stupid gym climbing.

reddit.com/r/climbing/comme…

Robbie Mackley wrote: FACT: A competent climber was dropped by a competent belay. FACT: This is an accident caused by complacency.

Um, wut? Can you kindly mail me some of whatever it is that you're ingesting that makes you think this makes a shred of logical sense?

Anyone that drops someone DOES NOT BELONG BELAYING. Period. Anything short of that assertion isn't worth discussing at all.