Trango Vergo

They had it at OR in January but wouldn't let anyone take photos of it for who knows what reason. i couldn't take photos so didn't even bother looking at it... curious to see it once it's available.

kennoyce wrote: Because about once a year there is an unexplainable failure where a climber is dropped to the ground by a very experienced belayer who has been using the cinch for many years without any problems.

I thought that was due to too much wear on the pin which, admittedly tended to wear out too fast.

eli poss wrote: I thought that was due to too much wear on the pin which, admittedly tended to wear out too fast.

Also the extremely thin margin of error due to the near complete lack of friction of the rope through the device, as well as a serious design flaw with an outwardly exposed tab that can easily be jammed open by fabric (e.g. glove or jacket). The cinch can only lock via its camming action, whereas other devices (i.e. grigri) can also act as a tube device should the camming action fail to initiate for some reason.

There is an inherent tradeoff between feeding friction through the device and the amount of human interaction required to lock it. The cinch had virtually no feeding friction, and it was possible (though of course unlikely) that even a slight error could result in the rope zipping straight through the device without catching. Combine that with the tab issue (on which I personally nearly dropped someone I belayed due to glove fabric catching in the tab, preventing locking), makes this a touchy device. There may be some ways of sidestepping the above tradeoff (BD's proposed clutch-pulley system maybe?).

Almost all belay device failure is an interaction between the user and the device. In this case, I think the device has too thin a margin for most people, including myself. I sold mine a long time ago, picked up a grigri2, and have no regrets. Well into the "good enough" feeding category, less likely for camming action to fail, and far lower consequences if the camming action doesn't catch.

Super curious if the vergo addresses the above issue. In my opinion, this is a far more important issue than "panic pull." Either way, it's cool to see some development and potential competition between Petzl, BD, and Trango in the assisted lock department, though I imaginee it'll be pretty hard to beat the grigri2.

eli poss wrote: I thought that was due to too much wear on the pin which, admittedly tended to wear out too fast.

What shoo said, but also just wanted to point out that on many of these failures, the pin has looked to be in great shape with very minimal wear.

Trango wrote: ...All assisted braking belay devices work every time. Period. The only time they don’t work is when the belayer holds them open.

I'd be a little worried about a new device being promoted by someone who thinks this is a true statement about existing devices. For one thing, there are some substantial questions about what happens at high loads and with thin ropes.

Trango wrote: Seeing every popular device misused so widely in gyms and at the crag was the real inspiration to focus on the biggest limitation — how users will actually end up using a belay device. The fact that the Vergo never has to be overridden and its instructions don’t call for exceptions to that is the biggest reason it stands out, and it’s the reason I’ve felt comfortable handing it to partners who are about to belay me on a project.

A bit of bursting through doors already open syndrome here. All of this about never having to be overridden (and claims about "natural" handling} is already true of the Climbing Techhology Alpine Up and Click Up.

shoo wrote: In this case, I think the device has too thin a margin for most people, including myself.

I dont think it's any less safe than any other device as long as the device is not worn out. Between my GF, myself and my main climbing partner, we've probably caught over 2,000 combined lead falls, even on ropes thinner in which the device is rated for (e.g. 9.1mm), and we've never lost control of the belay. I do recognize that the pin wear issue is a legit issue though. We have gone through five Cinches between the three of us over the last few years because of it. On the other hand, none of us have had to replace our GriGris and my GF still uses the GriGri 1.

At the RRR Trango booth, I brought up the issue about the pin wear, and it seemed the gal staffing the booth dident recognize it as a legitimate issue, although she dident really put me off about it either.

Also, the GriGri doesesnt really function as a tube device when threaded backwards of if the pin is held open. This has been tested before and it was determined that the GriGri, threaded backwards, provides significantly less friction than any plate belay device on the market, so I wouldent put much faith into catching a fall on the GriGri with the cam locked open. You might pull it off on a small fall with a firm grip, but it's far from a reliable option.

Web page is up for it.

trango.com/p-337-vergo.aspx

Some more info here too:
trangovergo.com/#vergo-intro

So I just noticed this on Trango website

"Trad, sport, and gym climbers will appreciate the Vergo's versatility and ability to thrive in any discipline."

Those this mean that it has a softer catch more similar to an ATC? or it doesn't matter that much what belay device we use for trad. It would be nice if it has a softer catch and still be an assisted braking device.

Curious about wear and longevity, looks like the same pin pinch type lock up. Like many people I've worn out many Cinches. Looks like a redesigned Cinch

It's a cinch 2!

JulianG wrote: It would be nice if it has a softer catch and still be an assisted braking device.

It's one or the other. That's sort of like saying I wish my car had both more power and better fuel economy. The way manufacturers manipulate the device to allow for some rope slippage is to reduce the braking force, which in essence makes it less assisted braking and more conventional ATC. This is evident when you use these types of belay devices on really thin ropes. The device will slip quite significantly under low loads on thin ropes, where as the GriGri and other firm locking devices typically will not.

The best way to provide a soft catch is to step up into the fall and jump a bit. That allows yourself to be pulled up and it's safer than using a device that will intentionally slip. Otherwise you have a device that will slip under high loads on thick ropes, but will fail to lock correctly on thin ropes, especially when rappelling.

Bob your link is bad

Here: blog.weighmyrack.com/trango…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SboaD9uDQ_Y

youtube.com/watch?v=E65mEQ7…

LOL. Great moments in marketing: "You're not overriding it, you're just disengaging it for a moment" (in video #2).

Seriously, I don't get it. It's a re-designed Cinch. It might have a few minor alterations, but you use it exactly the same way (they changed the prescribed method for the cinch to using it upside down), it locks the same, you hold it the same, and it feeds the same.

Why did it take so long to spit out a Cinch with a new side plate? And why is it better other than the fact that it is more ergonomically designed to be used correctly?

All the wait and hype for this? I don't feel like they accomplished much of anything cutting edge or innovative with this one...

Sam Stephens wrote:Seriously, I don't get it. It's a re-designed Cinch. It might have a few minor alterations, but you use it exactly the same way (they changed the prescribed method for the cinch to using it upside down), it locks the same, you hold it the same, and it feeds the same. Why did it take so long to spit out a Cinch with a new side plate? And why is it better other than the fact that it is more ergonomically designed to be used correctly? All the wait and hype for this? I don't feel like they accomplished much of anything cutting edge or innovative with this one...

I think people complained too much about the Cinch on MP and they wanted a new start for the redesign. Just marketing.

JulianG wrote: I think people complained too much about the Cinch on MP and they wanted a new start for the redesign. Just marketing.

Correct, purely marketing. It appears to be virtually the exact same mechanism as the cinch, just a few minor changes to make it friendlier to use in their preferred configuration. One notable positive is that got rid of the stupid (and frankly dangerous) outer tab, so there is one less failure mode to worry about.

I strongly doubt anyone is going to fall for it, and it might come back to bite them. It's a bit disingenuous to rename a device if the major complaint is the mechanism, and you didn't change the mechanism.

Also, they're selling it for the same price retail as the GriGri2. Good luck with that.

shoo wrote: Correct, purely marketing. It appears to be virtually the exact same mechanism as the cinch, just a few minor changes to make it friendlier to use in their preferred configuration. One notable positive is that got rid of the stupid (and frankly dangerous) outer tab, so there is one less failure mode to worry about. I strongly doubt anyone is going to fall for it, and it might come back to bite them. It's a bit disingenuous to rename a device if the major complaint is the mechanism, and you didn't change the mechanism. Also, they're selling it for the same price retail as the GriGri2. Good luck with that.

They tweaked a product that IMO is the best belay device I've tried. So Trango changed the name, big deal. I'm happy they kept the product. The Cinch has gotten a lot of undeserved bad press from forums like this one.

I agree that it doesn't hardly appear any different than the original Cinch, hopefully they fixed some of the issues with the original like the pin wear. I understand the name change due to the bad reputation of its predecessor. For what it's worth the Cinch is my favorite device for belaying up a second on multipitch in guide mode.