Using a Mammut Smart - Pulling my belayer up to the first clip, can this release the device?

I'm a heavier guy (210lbs or so on a multipitch with all my gear/water/etc). and lots of my partners are smaller, in the 140-160lbs range.

I've pulled people into the first clip on small whippers (20ft fall), where the slamming of the grigri into the first clip is what arrested my fall.

My question is, if that person was using a Mammut SMART (which is my preferred device outdoors), could it potentially release the device and I would deck?

Has anyone ever been pulled into the first bolt using a SMART? Anything happen?

I don't bring grigri's outside because they aren't as useful and they're heavy. You can only belay with them, can't rap.

Just thinking about a safety issue that might be relevant to others. I've been messing with my friends Edelrid Mega Jul, which I like, and doesn't seem to have as long of a "lever" to get caught on something and accidentally lower. On say, rappel for example.

Sounds to me like you might consider a ground anchor, gloves for the belayer, and possibly taking fewer falls.

As long as they are not belaying with it and not holding the braek side it should work just fine even if the jarring action of the bolt disengages the braking function.

I have to sec ond the idea of a ground anchor it can be a pretty long tether to keep you falls softish.. but you don't want to jam the hands of your belayer into the wall.. The involuntary flinch response could result in a drop..

BryanOC wrote: I've pulled people into the first clip on small whippers (20ft fall), where the slamming of the grigri into the first clip is what arrested my fall. My question is, if that person was using a Mammut SMART (which is my preferred device outdoors), could it potentially release the device and I would deck?

Any device, including a Grigri, that collides with an anchor might possibly release.

Dylan B. wrote: Huh?

As long as they are not relying on the device to do all the braking by leaving there hand off the brake strand...

if the smart lever gets lifted up for whatever reason ... the device can release

also on hard falls on thinner ropes, the smart may not "autolock" ... so if yr belayer was depending on that and not the brake hand ... SPLAT !!!

make sure your belayer knows the hidden "failure modes" of the smart (alpine) ... there are several

;)

On the money that the Grigri could release in that situation. Surprised Rgold didn't mention as well that the Edelrid Mega Jul has very low holding power. The situation you are describing looks to be a bad idea to use the Jul.

Billcoe wrote:On the money that the Grigri could release in that situation. Surprised Rgold didn't mention as well that the Edelrid Mega Jul has very low holding power. The situation you are describing looks to be a bad idea to use the Jul.

On what kind of rope, and paired with what kind of biner? With a ~10mm rope and a narrow biner like a DMM Sentinel, the Mega Jul locks up like a vault.

My girlfriend weighs 50 pounds less than I do, so her getting pulled up into the first bolt is an important consideration. I worry more about her hand getting injured by being pulled through the carabiner than the belay device getting opened.

I just took a short seminar by Don Mcgrath (author of Vertical Mind) who suggests you unclip the first bolt after the second bolt is clipped. This gives a greater distance for the belayer to get pulled up before impacting the bolt.

Personally, I prefer anchoring the belayer with some slack so you get some of the benefit of a softer catch due to the belayer being lifted, but stopping them before they reach the first bolt. I've done many multi-pitch trad lines, so this is identical to a belayer being anchored at one of the pitches. They can be lifted a few feet but are eventually stopped by the anchor. (This highlights the importance of having a cam or nut placed to stop an upward pull!!)

Billcoe wrote:On the money that the Grigri could release in that situation. Surprised Rgold didn't mention as well that the Edelrid Mega Jul has very low holding power. The situation you are describing looks to be a bad idea to use the Jul.

With the Jul, I've noticed this as well. When I have a heavy climber hanging on route, the mega jul will SLOWLY let rope slip through. With a 9.8mm rope weighted and stretched, it looks like a 9.0mm rope.

One thing to add, at my gym, they don't have ground anchors. They do provide sand bags but they seem to make almost zero difference. I tried it with a ~120lb climber with and without the bag. She was still pulled up roughly same amount. Voodoo physics i guess?

While we're on the topic of heavy climbers like myself, can't wait to try the Edelrid Ohm when it comes out. Looks a little funky, but shows promise for this situation!

It's already been said, but it bears repeating. You need to anchor your belayer so that they can give you a soft catch, but not be pulled into the first bolt. That's more important than which device you choose.

If you're thinking that you release the assisted braking mechanism on a Smart by pushing up, and in theory, it would get pushed down into the locked position when you hit the bolt you're correct. But I wouldn't count on this as a safety mechanism, their are other ways it could unlock when it drags around the rock/bolt. No device was designed to get forcefully smashed into rock. Belayers aren't designed for this either, they tend to bleed when it happens and then you need a new one.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:I just took a short seminar by Don Mcgrath (author of Vertical Mind) who suggests you unclip the first bolt after the second bolt is clipped. This gives a greater distance for the belayer to get pulled up before impacting the bolt.

This method is fine, so long as you understand that you might (gently) hit the ground as you continue to lift your partner. I've twice taken moderate whips (waist at the next bolt, no additional slack out) with my wife and lifted her into the second. In both situations I ended up pretty close to the ground, but moving slowly enough that if I were to hit it I wouldn't see any real cause for concern. This situation is exacerbated in steep terrain and with steel carabiners, a recipe for very limited friction.

Ironically, when I was at the climbing gym a few days ago i watched a women get violently pulled into the first clip when her boyfriend fell while leading. Fortunately, she was not injured - but if her hand was positioned differently it would have been a different story.

There is a similar difference between my girlfriend and me so I have been thinking about this. I've been leading climbs way below my max onsight ability to reduce the chance of a fall. However, I've been taking longer and longer top rope falls to give her experience at catching falls.

I've read about many people advocating to give soft catches while belaying. But there are risks with this since it lengthens the fall and on many climbs increases the risk of hitting a ledge or other obstacles.

My personal preference is to anchor a small belayer with a little bit of slack. That way the belayer can be lifted a little bit to give a softer fall but also keep the belayer from being pulled into the first clip.

I've been climbing a long time, and my favorite are long multipitch climbs. If you think about it, the belayer is anchored and can be lifted a small distance, just like the scenario I talked about.

On a funny related note, there was an article in Summit magazine a long, long time ago about practicing giving soft catches by stopping a Volkswagen beetle going past at 15 mph! It descibed how to rig the belay and the anchor to the car!

Matt Stroebel wrote:It's already been said, but it bears repeating. You need to anchor your belayer so that they can give you a soft catch, but not be pulled into the first bolt. That's more important than which device you choose. If you're thinking that you release the assisted braking mechanism on a Smart by pushing up, and in theory, it would get pushed down into the locked position when you hit the bolt you're correct. But I wouldn't count on this as a safety mechanism, their are other ways it could unlock when it drags around the rock/bolt. No device was designed to get forcefully smashed into rock. Belayers aren't designed for this either, they tend to bleed when it happens and then you need a new one.

I do anchor outdoors, but my home gym does not have ground anchors. They do have sand bags but they seem to make no difference in how far my belayer is pulled up.

I don't wanna hurt myself or my belayer. Hence, I like this discussion.

BryanOC wrote: I do anchor outdoors, but my home gym does not have ground anchors. They do have sand bags but they seem to make no difference in how far my belayer is pulled up. I don't wanna hurt myself or my belayer. Hence, I like this discussion.

Use additional sandbags. They will make a difference proportional to how much they weigh. If you have a 10 pound sandbag you won't notice it as much. A 50 pound sandbag will be far more noticeable. Keep adding weight until you achieve the desired effect.

Arlo F Niederer wrote: I've read about many people advocating to give soft catches while belaying. But there are risks with this since it lengthens the fall and on many climbs increases the risk of hitting a ledge or other obstacles.

Soft catches aren't really up for debate, it's a settled issue. As a belayer you should always be evaluating where your partner is at, how much rope is out, where they will land if you catch them hard or if you catch them softly. If a soft catch would deck them onto a ledge or they would swing into a cave or some other feature that would hurt them, then you should give them a harder catch to avoid the danger. But, if the fall zone is free from hazards you should absolutely give a soft catch. By giving a soft catch it reduces the speed at which they swing back into the rock. Keeps them from breaking their legs.
/ankles etc.

Another aspect of soft catches that doesn't always seem to get taught is that a smaller belayer is by default giving a softer catch. When I catch someone of similar size to me, I need to jump a little as the rope comes taught to make the catch soft. My friend who is 50 lbs lighter than me simply needs to stand there to make a soft catch. If she were to jump, she'd get pulled up to the first bolt.

Matt Stroebel wrote: Soft catches aren't really up for debate, it's a settled issue. As a belayer you should always be evaluating where your partner is at, how much rope is out, where they will land if you catch them hard or if you catch them softly. If a soft catch would deck them onto a ledge or they would swing into a cave or some other feature that would hurt them, then you should give them a harder catch to avoid the danger. But, if the fall zone is free from hazards you should absolutely give a soft catch. By giving a soft catch it reduces the speed at which they swing back into the rock. Keeps them from breaking their legs. /ankles etc.

Evaluating the fall your leader will take is sound logic! Provide the belay appropriate for the situation - keep them from hitting obstacles or give a softer catch.

I started climbing when the rule was "the leader doesn't fall," with many good reasons for that. But as ropes and protection improved, falling became way safer. I'm reading Vertical Mind by Don McGrath and took a short seminar related to the book. What I had never thought about was taking practice falls, starting with shorter ones and increasing the length of the fall. This builds up experience with different falls just like building up experience with different climbs.

I was climbing at Shelf Road this last weekend and was nervous about a potential fall at the crux move. So I evaluated the fall and took a short one - it was mellower than what I imagined, so I wasn't afraid of making the move and successfully finished the climb.