Clarity for a new climbers sake

Guy Keesee wrote: Metolus Rap hangers..... one about a long draw length above and slightly off to the side from the lower one. If you put a long draw on the upper one and a regular draw on the lower one they are even so the rope runs nice and free. Sometimes with a chain on the upper one, then just a regular hanger and the lower is a Metolus rap hanger. Scott Ayers has been using this sort of a set up for a while (one chain and big hanger).... I have copied him. It's a much lighter set up to carry.... we need to hike about 4-5 miles to get to one of the places we go.

That's an awful choice for anchors. They chew your rope up even just pulling it through (not stainless either). Most have stopped using the Metolius Rap hangers a long time ago. Why not just put a couple beefy quicklinks on each hanger or keep an eye out for sales at Fixe for the SS double ring anchors? $7 each for the doubles on sale. Even the single ring ones would be better than the Rap Hangers, though I don't like them much. Or use Ramshorns. If they are on unpopular routes wearing out is unlikely to be a practical issue. I put up out there routes too and they are not very heavy.

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote:.. This is not common though.

That is just not true for modern sport areas that are developed by people not stuck with outdated ideas.

Jeremy in Inyokern wrote:In some areas it is ok to lower off fixed gear. You'll know because the FA will tell you. This is not common though.

Serious question. How many popular sport areas (besides ORG) have you climbed at? Have you ever been to Rumney? Smith? RRG? NRG? Obed? Rifle? Any sport climbing area that actually has steep climbing? There are lot's of places where lowering off is ok and the norm, and lots of places where it isn't.

My personal experience is that the rap hangers aren't bad when the route is dead vert, and as far as them not being stainless, I've pulled bolts where they used rap hangers and the bolt was destroyed where as the hanger just had surface rust. These guys are so thick it would take a lot of corrosion before they fell below 22kn strength. Having said that I would never use them personally, better options out there for cheaper. The good news is you can throw some quicklinks on them if the route becomes popular.

M Sprague wrote: That's an awful choice for anchors. They chew your rope up even just pulling it through (not stainless either). Most have stopped using the Metolius Rap hangers a long time ago. Why not just put a couple beefy quicklinks on each hanger or keep an eye out for sales at Fixe for the SS double ring anchors? $7 each for the doubles on sale. Even the single ring ones would be better than the Rap Hangers, though I don't like them much. Or use Ramshorns. If they are on unpopular routes wearing out is unlikely to be a practical issue. I put up out there routes too and they are not very heavy.

M Sprague. I find that if you walk to the side and pull- the rope is easy to pull and does not get twisted. If this place ever gets on the radar we will hang the chains up for sure. I hate the hanger with a ring (fixie?) because you must clip into the ring cause there is not enuf room for the ring and a biner while your setting up a lower/rap.

I do like the Scott Ayers set up... and Zapa Dome and the other locations in Chochese currently see a ton of traffic.

One last thing about using only Metolus Rap hangers is the fact that they come in grey and brown. I hate it when you can see the giant chains hanging down from like 6 miles away.... LOL. I do go to a place that is little used but was heavily developed, climbs every 6 feet, big ass 3 foot giant chains hanging down and sparkling in the sun. That place looks bad, IMHO, land mgrs see that and freak out.

I agree on the single ring type, just like the Metolius even less. I very much agree on the excessive chain being ugly too. I try to avoid a bunch of chain unless it is an unusual circumstance where it is the only way to get the anchor into good rock and not have it trash ropes.

If you rap you are a 5.9 climber.
If you lower you are a 5.12 climber.
If you lean back and your partner has taken you off belay you are a dead climber.
If you rap and try to clean an overhanging route you are donating gear to the next person to climb the route.

Truth be told, rapping is not antiquated. Lowering is not new or fancy. It really just depends. But people get set in their ways and tend to advocate what they have been taught or what they are familiar with.

Many people with the lowering is better mentality have made their way to Indian Creek where the rock is quite soft. Very deep, damaging grooves have developed in the rock. These are permanent and irreparable.

Many people with the lowering is better mentality have made their way to Clear Creek where routes are sometime 110 feet or more. Many people have been lowered of the end of the rope leading to serious injury.

Many people with the lowering is better mentality have made their way to crags everywhere. And miscommunication has lead to many people falling to their death from the anchors.

Lowering definitely wears anchors faster. But, it may be the best option on certain routes.

Some will claim rapping is more dangerous. This also is antiquated thinking. Back in the day, multi pitch climbing was more the norm and rapping mishaps happened at the end of a long day, in the dark, and usually led to a fatality. In the context of single pitch cragging and sport areas this simply is not true.

I'm not advocating one over the other. They both have their place.

Many of the comments above will give you a head start. But, in the end its up to you to decide which is the best method.

It depends!!

Guy Keesee wrote: I hate the hanger with a ring (fixie?) because you must clip into the ring cause there is not enuf room for the ring and a biner while your setting up a lower/rap.

What's wrong with that? Those rings are rated to 40kn. I'll happily clip and hang from them all day. Plus they are big enough that you still have plenty of room to thread a rope through the ring, even with 2 biners cliped to it.

Plus those rings last a long time. With the tendency of the ring to rotate, the wear gets nicely distributed around the ring, preventing the formation of a groove. Seriously, how many times have you seen rings anchors get dangerously worn. I can't think of very many, and I climb at a lot of sport areas where lowering through the rings is standard practice.

But yes, double rings are much nicer.

One clear "rule"

If you cant see or hear yr partner very well .... Either "self lower" or rap off ... Or walk off

Every single time

At the very least throw on a munter or prussik ... Till you get to the point where you can see or hear em clearly

And as you cant see em clearly, you probably cant see the ends on the ground either so put knots in

And test that setup aggresively before taking off yr safety

The fastest my PHAT AZN azz has ever jiggled was when some gurl at the top of a clim got to the top and said "off belay", you cant see or hear yr belayer well at the top ... Her partner ran off somewhere ... She shouted "lower" ... Ive never run that fast before or after, not even chasing after "yoga pants"

;)

M Sprague wrote: That is just not true for modern sport areas that are developed by people not stuck with outdated ideas.

It's completely true in low traffic local areas with mussies. I speak specifically about hooks I've installed. So again in some areas it's fine. Rare though. And never assume it's ok.

M Sprague... agreed, it's all situational. We use the rap rings cause its easy, figure a upgrade is easy if need be.

Greg D.... WORD, well stated.

JCM... yea I know it works, but my tried and true methods tell me ... never two in the same you will get the PINCH and be screwed... ya know.

Bear.... words to LIVE by... "And test that setup aggresively before taking off yr safety "..... best advise ever!

"The fastest my PHAT AZN azz has ever jiggled was when some gurl at the top of a clim got to the top and said "off belay", you cant see or hear yr belayer well at the top ... Her partner ran off somewhere ... She shouted "lower" ... Ive never run that fast before or after, not even chasing after "yoga pants" ...... I have been there, one of the scariest moments ever... you can smell DEATH.

And to Jeremy.... hope to run into you some day, we do hit the same ground.

Good talking with you all.

bearbreeder wrote: some gurl at the top of a clim got to the top and said "off belay", you cant see or hear yr belayer well at the top ... Her partner ran off somewhere ... She shouted "lower" ... Ive never run that fast before or after, not even chasing after "yoga pants" ;)

This is exactly the type of scenario I was referring to upthread.

The way I work it in these single pitch situations is that unless I've heard the leader say, once at the anchors, "I am going to rappel" or "I am going to bring you up", I don't take them off belay. If they say "off belay" I ask if they are rapping or bringing me up before I take them off,and if I can't hear them, I'll keep them on belay until I know what they're planning. For true inability to communicate, there's always the "three tugs" deal, but I've yet to encounter a climb short enough to lower off where communication was this much of an issue. (Insert obligatory story about the epidemic of 20 meter routes where communication is impossible here_____.)

Optimistic wrote: unless I've heard the leader say, once at the anchors, "I am going to rappel" or "I am going to bring you up", I don't take them off belay. If they say "off belay" I ask if they are rapping or bringing me up before I take them off,and if I can't hear them, I'll keep them on belay until I know what they're planning.

Exactly what I do.

frank minunni wrote: Yes I will deviate from my normal routine if the situation dictates.

This is the attitude of an experienced and wise climber.

To the OP: learn many skills and know when is the most appropriate time to use them. Climbing (and most everything else) doesn't always go exactly as planned, and it you are too rigid and "by the book" on how to go about something, you can put yourself and your partner in more danger than necessary. Be flexible in applying your knowledge.

A story:

Very early on, my partner and I both learned a gentle lesson about communication. He was lowering on top rope, I was belaying, and he repeated "lower,.... lower,... LOWER! So I sped up each time. When he was running backwards down the cliff at a pretty good clip he finally screamed " STOP!!!" You may have guessed. I was hearing lower, lower, lower, he was saying slower, slower, slower. Lesson learned! Always, always, repeat back what the other says, and even then, if you aren't sure for any reason, always err on the side of what is safe, even if you have to over ride someone else.

kennoyce wrote: Wasn't really going to bring that point up, but it's true. I am also one of those people who actually place and replace anchors, and I also fully intend people to lower off of my anchors.

Put my routes in that category as well. If it has steel rings, or steel biners, or steel hooks, its completely fine to lower off, no matter where you are.

Thanks for all the good advice...although I do plan to continue to lower 99% of the time because the sport routes I frequent seem to be set up for it, I do clearly need to practice rappelling which in all honesty scares me the most about climbing...

Peace

Adam Robb..... you have never lived till you do a RAP from a jammed stone in a crack, tied in with the last foot of shoe lace you own.... in the pouring rain.

have deadly respect for the rap.

Merry Christmas happy New Years

Adam Robb,

You really need to get comfortable rappelling. It's an important part of the deal. You never know when you'll be forced to rappel and it might not be under ideal conditions. Get comfortable with it so you don't get blind sided. Climbing sure has changed when you can get by without knowing how or at least being comfortable rappelling. One of the first things I learned.

If you don't expect to rap much, it's even more important to have a good grasp of the basic concepts. You can practice cleaning an anchor and changing over to rappel from anything (I use the kitchen cupboard handles and some draws as faux anchors and chains), unweighted, then somewhere weighted, but with no consequences. It isn't important to know all the nuances (bachmann vs. Prussik, etc.), but you have to know you are safe. And please consider using a backup. There's a huge long thread on the pros and cons, but for me, that in itself is a useful skill to practice.