Backing up rappells: Who does it?

Little bit scared to ask this question in fear of getting flamed, but here it goes and maybe and I can get a nice response. About a year ago I was going to rap down a single pitch route (easiest and probably safest way by far to the get to the base of the route). The rope had been flaked out beforehand and center of the rope was properly aligned with the anchor. The roped was tossed down and ends hit the ground (barely as this was around a 30 meter route). I was about to start rappelling when another person at the base not of my party yelled that the rope was knotted on one of the strands about 2/3rds the way down. Needless to say I pull the rope up and took out the knot. If that person had not been there and I rappelled down and got stuck at that knot what would have been my options?

Stop above the knot, secure yourself with the leg wrap if you don't use an autoblock (in this case you were forewarned) and pull the rope up and unknot the tangle.

Fortunately you took the safest route by pulling the rope up.

manuel rangel wrote:Stop above the knot, secure yourself with the leg wrap if you don't use an autoblock (in this case you were forewarned) and pull the rope up and unknot the tangle. Fortunately you took the safest route by pulling the rope up.

What if the knot jams into my rappel device? Then what?

Assuming you didn't pay attention to the end of your rope and it is stuck? Big fail.

If all you have is your rap device, you may want to stop before the knot at the end of the rope. If, as you say, you are at the end of the rope and knot is stuck, use a couple of prussiks to ascend the rope and free the knot or climb back up to safety.

- go hands free, tie off the device or use leg wraps

- tie a catastrophe knot a few feet below the knot

- take a long sling ... kleimheist it above the device

- step into the sling, pull the device up

- undo the stuck knot

- take out the catastrophe knot

- rappel again and go WHEEE !!!!

theres a way to do this without any slings or prussiks but thats another discussion

if you have long hair and you dont know this procedure ... its only a matter a time (even if you use a hair tie) ... sooner or later yr hair, if long enough WILL get stuck ...

in fact theres a not insignificant chance that clothing may get stuck as well ...

one can climb shirtless with a beanie all the time of course and never have the issue

;)

manuel rangel wrote:Assuming you didn't pay attention to the end of your rope and it is stuck? Big fail. If all you have is your rap device, you may want to stop before the knot at the end of the rope. If, as you say, you are at the end of the rope and knot is stuck, use a couple of prussiks to ascend the rope and free the knot or climb back up to safety.

It's easier than that. You can just pass the knot. Sorry I can't find a decent video.

Bill Kirby wrote: What if the knot jams into my rappel device? Then what?

Worse yet, what if you climb with just draws, an ATC, and a biner or two? If you were hanging in space, out of reach of the rock, I can't think how you could get out of it, even with a desperate amount of arm strength to get some slack and rope to work with. Guess that's when you owe your friends a buncha beers.

Old lady H wrote: Worse yet, what if you climb with just draws, an ATC, and a biner or two? If you were hanging in space, out of reach of the rock, I can't think how you could get out of it, even with a desperate amount of arm strength to get some slack and rope to work with. Guess that's when you owe your friends a buncha beers.

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/prussiking-without-any-slings-or-cords/108353040

not a topic of any interest so most MPers

;)

For those extending with a PAS or sling--you can create redundancy, at least for most of the procedure, by clipping your rap biner through both the first and second loops of the PAS and then clipping the remaining tether back to your belay loop. For a sling, put a knot in the middle of the sling and clip in on both sides of the knot, then clip the free end of the sling back to your belay loop. In both cases you now have redundancy except during the moments you are moving from anchor to rapping and back--if that makes you uncomfortable, you should be using a second tether sling anyway for a redundant connection to your anchors.

I personally like using slings since I already have them on most climbs an you can ascend a rope with them. A PAS is super convenient but also kind of a heavy monotasker.

Healyje wrote: I've done around two hundred plus hours of anchor replacements and cleaning out of neglected routes on a multi-pitch crag with 80-90 pound loads using the this system and can testify to its efficacy, ease and simplicity.

80-90 lbs of gear for cleaning and bolting? You must have one of those gas-powered compressor/hammer drill set-ups.

The shunt is a rope-grab. It's designed to be a static back-up for ascending and remaining stationary while bolting or what have ya. Yeah, you can uncam it but using the shunt as a rappel back-up is a bit spicy. The toothed cam will destroy dynamic rope at about 3kn, and 2kn will do some sheath damage. With a 90-pound ruck on a fixed dynamic rope, it doesn't take much to produce 3kn. I can verify this with Petzl if you guys are curious.

The shunt also has the nasty habit of failing to engage if you grab it in a panic in just the right way, and has led to a few fatalities in the rope access industry.

If you were to reverse the arrangement, and mule off on the atc with the shunt above the atc as a back-up, that would sorta work, but a simple prussik would be better.

For bolting and cleaning though, I can see the appeal in toothed camming devices, but why not just use a grigri and keep it simple. Using more gear isn't more safe, it's just more complicated, and more dangerous when used in an unorthodox fashion.

I am curious though, for lowering and positioning for bolting, why do you use this configuration over just a grigri, + a jumar if you need to ascend?

The petzl asap/asap lock might appeal to you. It is a toothed cam, but it brakes dynamically. The toothed cam is on a pulley that incrementally builds resistance until it completely locks after about 3' on static rope (<10% elongation) and I'd guess double that on dynamic rope depending on a lot of factors. It also has a shock absorbing lanyard that activates at a high enough fall factor.

The CAMP goblin is similar. Cam isn't toothed, so it's like the Kong back-up, except it engages dynamically like the ASAP. It's also cheaper. You'd probably really like it for the stuff you're doing.

About a year ago, I bought one of these sterlingrope.com/c/climbing…;selected_cat_keys=1114670.54622.1114348.0.0&selected_product=7106225405edb2aeaf9529da951b92c9&redirected_post=1

rwrope.com/sport-climbing-r…

get on my level

bearbreeder wrote:- go hands free, tie off the device or use leg wraps - tie a catastrophe knot a few feet below the knot - take a long sling ... kleimheist it above the device - step into the sling, pull the device up - undo the stuck knot - take out the catastrophe knot - rappel again and go WHEEE !!!! theres a way to do this without any slings or prussiks but thats another discussion if you have long hair and you dont know this procedure ... its only a matter a time (even if you use a hair tie) ... sooner or later yr hair, if long enough WILL get stuck ... in fact theres a not insignificant chance that clothing may get stuck as well ... one can climb shirtless with a beanie all the time of course and never have the issue ;)

Well, if the other end hits the ground, and there's no sharp edges against the rope to worry about, You just keep rapelling, muling off with the strand that actually makes it to the ground. The rope will now run through the anchors, so that's a no go if your anchor is a bundle of old tat with no rap rings or biners, but with metallic anchors, this should be fine just in case.

This method has absolutely zero steps (unless muling off on one strand instead of two counts), but like I said, a no-go if the rope will run across sharp edges, or if the other strand doesn't touch the ground.

I climbed with this guy a long time ago, kind of a prick, but we were rapping down a pitch where the rope was 15' from the ground on one end and touching the ground on the other. He told me to just let the short end come out of my atc while I downclimbed to the base, with the weight of the rope and friction there as a 'counterweight' and to slow my fall slightly should I fuck up. Risky Business, but maybe something to add to all yalls toolkits.

Disaster Franklin wrote: Well, if the other end hits the ground, and there's no sharp edges against the rope to worry about, You just keep rapelling, muling off with the strand that actually makes it to the ground. The rope will now run through the anchors, so that's a no go if your anchor is a bundle of old tat with no rap rings or biners, but with metallic anchors, this should be fine just in case. This method has absolutely zero steps (unless muling off on one strand instead of two counts), but like I said, a no-go if the rope will run across sharp edges, or if the other strand doesn't touch the ground. I climbed with this guy a long time ago, kind of a prick, but we were rapping down a pitch where the rope was 15' from the ground on one end and touching the ground on the other. He told me to just let the short end come out of my atc while I downclimbed to the base, with the weight of the rope and friction there as a 'counterweight' and to slow my fall slightly should I fuck up. Risky Business, but maybe something to add to all yalls toolkits.

that wont work with a 60m rope on a 30m rap if theres a knot or something stuck midway (not uneven ends) ...

or if yr hair gets stuck ...

however if the ends are uneven then thats the preferred way to do it providing theres metal anchors point ... with a knot on the short end

folks should lean the basics or unloading the rope properly ... its the first step to re-ascending the rope if you miss the rap station ... or if you need to pass a knot

its a simple skill with many applications

;)

bearbreeder wrote: mountainproject.com/v/pruss… not a topic of any interest to most MPers ;)

I've thought for a while that in terms of information density and high signal-to-noise ratio, that has to be one of the best posts ever on MP.

If you somehow manage to rap until the knots at the end of the rope have jammed in the device (dummy!) then the tail-end Penberthy knot trick isn't available because there is no tail end.

In mountainproject.com/v/how-t… , I suggested that a second on a multipitch climb ought to have two small 6mm prussik loops, three over-the-shoulder runners, and four light locking carabiners as part of their kit. (The four lockers were to allow the second to rapidly construct their own rope-only anchor at belay stations when the party isn't using cordelettes. Minimilists and cordelette users might trim this to two non-lockers and no runners, since the second will have the cordelette from the belay anchor. The two small prussiks can disappear into a zipper chalk bag pocket guaranteeing that they will never be forgotten.)

This set-up should get you out of any "ordinary" jam in which you find yourself hanging in space. The three runners have various applications, one of which is to girth-hitch them together to make a foot loop long enough to easily unweight the belay device.

Some people took me to task for loading up the second with too much stuff, slowing them down and ruining their enjoyment. My response would be just wait and see how much slowness and lack of enjoyment ensues when the second is helpless baggage hanging in space, but as always YMMV.

If a person is hanging at the end of the rope with no slack below them to work with, and if they have something to make a short prussik out of but nothing else, then there is a rather athletic sport-climbing trick for standing up on a loop of your own rope---see climbing.com/skill/walking-… .

youtube.com/watch?v=gAzXYVd…

bearbreeder wrote: mountainproject.com/v/pruss… not a topic of any interest so most MPers ;)

Great thread over there, bearbreeder! Thanks so much! My mind was actually picturing being at the end of both ropes. I've done tons of reading, and was brought into climbing by a SAR guy, so I've had the fun of learning that a rope by itself will do amazing things. Sorry, I'll try to keep the thinking thing in check.

bearbreeder wrote: that wont work with a 60m rope on a 30m rap if theres a knot or something stuck midway (not uneven ends) ... or if yr hair gets stuck ... however if the ends are uneven then thats the preferred way to do it providing theres metal anchors point ... with a knot on the short end folks should lean the basics or unloading the rope properly ... its the first step to re-ascending the rope if you miss the rap station ... or if you need to pass a knot its a simple skill with many applications ;)

You're right. But Healyje was asking what to do when a knot jams his atc on one line end, while the other end manages to meet the ground. In which case lowering out on the end on the ground. He can lower on the running rappel all the way to the end of the other rope, and hopefully that'll get him to the ground. If not, proceed to plan B

You're absolutely right about the importance of knowing how to unload a rappel device. People should know how to do this. I mean, they should know how to do a lot of things, but that's a core skill for unfucking oneself.

As far as long hair goes, I stay clear. Yeah, the chicks dig it, but the short crop I rock can't be grabbed onto in a barfight, and it'll never get stuck in an atc. Plus, I would just end up with a serious gray-speckled jewfro.

So how many of you guys tie stopper knots on your rope ends? I think they're called stopper knots because they wedge into cracks just like stoppers when you pull your rope.

Why would you still have knots in the ends of your rope when pulling it? It ain't that hard. Take the knots out before pulling the rope.

Just down climb everything than you don't need to worry about backing up a rappel.

bearbreeder wrote: that wont work with a 60m rope on a 30m rap if theres a knot or something stuck midway (not uneven ends) ... or if yr hair gets stuck ... however if the ends are uneven then thats the preferred way to do it providing theres metal anchors point ... with a knot on the short end folks should lean the basics or unloading the rope properly ... its the first step to re-ascending the rope if you miss the rap station ... or if you need to pass a knot its a simple skill with many applications ;)

Oh I get it. We are in complete agreement but neither of us realize it. Yeah definitely won't work on a 30m rap, and a midline knot cuts the length down even further. There's another thing I posted about downclimbing with the rope as a counterweight. It's up there a page or two.

Yeah when I first started climbing, I ran through the anchor and self rescue books at my local crag because I knew one day I would be the hero that sweeps in to save the damsel in distress that got her rope stuck halfway down levitation 29. Then she'd fall madly in love with me. Hasn't happened yet.

It is really handy to know how to unfuck yourself and prevent shitshows from growing into epics or worse.

Disaster Franklin wrote:It is really handy to know how to unfuck yourself and prevent shitshows from growing into epics or worse.

This.
Unfortunately (or, in the case of damsel in distress, fortunately) many more people are able to climb than those able to unfuck themselves. It's only a matter of years before we start seeing a significant increase in accidents.

On the other hand, accidents might make climbing less popular and, in the long run, benefit the real climbers. That is, if such accidents don't fuck up our access (I'm looking at you Signal Mountain).