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Sep 24, 2013
with all discussion about REI, Obama, and the decline or morality in general

a few people have asked me how i ascend, escape the belay or backup my raps without any slings/cords ... probably sport weenies who only carry quickdraws =P

i do apologize for doing this off my 20 kn fence posts ... i usually do this at the crag, but im a lazy bum this week

heres how i do it ...

just a warning, how you do it is your own bizniss ... and this is in no way a "how to" guide, and youll die anyways if you learn how to do this on the intrawebs ... i am assuming a decent level of experience

first of all let me introduce the penberthy hitch ... names after mr penberthy of MSR i believe ...

to tie it on a cord

1. grab an armful of cord and tie an overhand on a bight

Rock Climbing Photo: penberthy on cord step 1
penberthy on cord step 1


2. place it on both strands (were assuming your either backing up or ascending a rap here) and place the knot at the bottom, wrap the free strand around the rope ABOVE the knot ... usually 4-5 turns on cord will do the trick, add more wraps for more holding power

make sure the wraps are NEAT and SNUG

Rock Climbing Photo: penberthy on cord step 2
penberthy on cord step 2


3. put the free strand through the eye of the overhand

Rock Climbing Photo: penberthy on cord step 3
penberthy on cord step 3


4. heres what a tied penberthy should look like

Rock Climbing Photo: penberthy on cord step voila !!!
penberthy on cord step voila !!!


now you may be telling yourself here "WTF are you smoking bearbreeder, you have an effing cord here ... you lying cheating, obama voting, bear fcukang, top rope gumbie !!!"

well my fellow MPers, the nice thing about the penberthy is that it generally works on the SAME SIZE cord of the ropes ... you just need to increase the number of wraps

remember that in rappel situations you have TWO FREE STRANDS of the rope ... the tails ... so if you need to re-ascend or backup your wraps, its a snap (hey that rhymes!!!)

now if yr tied in and following the very cute sasha digulian up bellavista on the those massive overhands, and fall ... yr still screwed as you have no free end ... but at least youre stuck on a mountain side with sasha when you die =P

heres the setup for ropes ... in reality you would use the tailends of the same rope ... i just used a different rope for clarity

also note that the orange rope is a 10mm mammut galaxy and the green a 10.2mm tendon ambition

Rock Climbing Photo: 10.2mm on 10mm penberthy hitch
10.2mm on 10mm penberthy hitch


here is the same setup on a SINGLE strand ... note that depending on the stiffness of the rope you may want more wraps for more friction ... i advise you to experiment before you use it in a real life situation where you could die horribly

this is of course quite useful if you need to escape the belay without any cord/slings ... you can always use the side tail

Rock Climbing Photo: penberthy 10mm/10.2mm single strand
penberthy 10mm/10.2mm single strand


heres an ascension rig if you need to re-ascend your rap ... though in reality you would make the top free strands longer for a foot loop ...

note that you want to stop and set this up around 15 feet BEFORE the end of your rope

Rock Climbing Photo: ascension rig penberthy, 10mm same rope
ascension rig penberthy, 10mm same rope


one note about the penberthy is that it is often load releasable if you grab the top and apply pressure like such ... so dont grab the knot when ascending

but for rescue situations you should always tie the munter mule to insure releasability

this of course means that you should always BACKUP your rig when ascending with fig 8s every so many feet ... as if the top knot slips it can hit the knot at yr waist and realease it as well ...

Rock Climbing Photo: release penberthy
release penberthy


and thats how I do it folks

time to scam some food stamps now

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 24, 2013
What do you need to learn all that for? My cell phone worked great from the top of the Chief to almost Cal Creek! Haha.. Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Joined Jul 21, 2012
40 points
Sep 24, 2013
Kirby1013 wrote:
What do you need to learn all that for? My cell phone worked great from the top of the Chief to almost Cal Creek! Haha..



well if u want the free whirly bird sightseeing tour

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 24, 2013
I always figured if I got into trouble SAR would walk across 99 from town to come get me. I thought I be able to relay on one of the dozen or so people watching me with binoculars by the bridge crossing the Sea to Sky to see my smoke signals! Wait.. that only happens on weekends.

Seriously, Bearbreeder, What do you carry for self rescue? I carry two autoblocks (plus a one I rap so three), a PAS and a spare ATC. I know I could carry less but I'm a Noob. Plus I'm feel comfortable I can escape a belay, jug up to grab broken ankle boy and then descend with him/her.

T
Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Joined Jul 21, 2012
40 points
Administrator
Sep 24, 2013
bearbreeder wrote:
a few people have asked me how i ascend, escape the belay or backup my raps without any slings/cords


bearbreeder wrote:
1. grab an armful of cord


Ummm...
Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
Joined Jul 30, 2011
703 points
Sep 24, 2013
Kirby1013 wrote:
I always figured if I got into trouble SAR would walk across 99 from town to come get me. I thought I be able to relay on one of the dozen or so people watching me with binoculars by the bridge crossing the Sea to Sky to see my smoke signals! Wait.. that only happens on weekends. Seriously, Bearbreeder, What do you carry for self rescue? I carry two autoblocks (plus a one I rap so three), a PAS and a spare ATC. I know I could carry less but I'm a Noob. Plus I'm feel comfortable I can escape a belay, jug up to grab broken ankle boy and then descend with him/her. T


the reality is that if your at the top of a long pitch you may have almost no gear

IMO you should be able to escape and get out with no more than a spare biner or two and perhaps a single sling

the penberthy is one item that allows you to use the rope for friction knots when you used up all the slings on the pitch

its like the munter, anchoring in with the rope, biner brakeetc ... and other skills that allow you to use less gear where you dont have said gear ... or your partner dropped it while being mauled by a crag bear that inhabits the ledges

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 24, 2013
bearbreeder wrote:
the reality is that if your at the top of a long pitch you may have almost no gear IMO you should be able to escape and get out with no more than a spare biner or two and perhaps a single sling the penberthy is one item that allows you to use the rope for friction knots when you used up all the slings on the pitch its like the munter, anchoring in with the rope, biner brakeetc ... and other skills that allow you to use less gear where you dont have said gear ... or your partner dropped it while being mauled by a crag bear that inhabits the ledges ;)


Thanks.. lots to think about now.
Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Joined Jul 21, 2012
40 points
Sep 24, 2013
A simple tautline hitch has worked for decades for those in the arborist trade. I, myself, prefer a Blake's hitch to a tautline for ascending. And the better part is, both can be done with a lot less than 15 feet of rope. Dan Felix
Joined Aug 24, 2012
30 points
Sep 24, 2013
Dan Felix wrote:
A simple tautline hitch has worked for decades for those in the arborist trade. I, myself, prefer a Blake's hitch to a tautline for ascending. And the better part is, both can be done with a lot less than 15 feet of rope.


ahh ... but the 15 feet includes the loop coming back and what you need for the leg loop ...and what you need to tie off the device, assuming prussic

in reality its quite a bit less ... but regardless the key is to plan for it before hitting the knot at the end of your rope

the best thing about the penberthy is that its VERY easy to remember .... tie it a few times and youll never forget it

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 24, 2013
I had hope and thought there could be change. Then I realized if you promised a reduction in cord usage you really mean an exponential growth. Next, your wife is going to tell us what to eat on long routes. And that no American climber should excel above climbers of other nations. Then, if we get to the top of a route, we didn't get there by ourselves.

Looks like a Flemhiest... Eh hem. Klemhiest (needed to clear my throat) with a twist.
Greg D
From Here
Joined Apr 5, 2006
511 points
Sep 25, 2013
ive received a few questions about the penberthy

here is the key to tying it IMO ... the strand needs to wrap around snugly and go into the hole with that twist over the coils ... this locks it in place

Rock Climbing Photo: wrap around and in the hole
wrap around and in the hole


here it is under body weight with 4 wraps on 8mm mammut phoenix half rope

Rock Climbing Photo: under load 8mm 4 wraps
under load 8mm 4 wraps


to release it give a slight pull on the strand going into the hole with yr thumb

Rock Climbing Photo: releasing penberthy
releasing penberthy


a stiffer rope like my seen some mileage mammut 9.5mm infinity may require more wraps ... this may also make it a bit harder to release the hitch ... but it still holds body weight just fine if you snug up the knot properly

Rock Climbing Photo: 9.5mm penberthy under load 5 wraps
9.5mm penberthy under load 5 wraps


now some arborist have recommended the blakes hitch ... which works quite well ... the problem is that can lazy climbers who practice rescue once a year if they are diligent remember a knot they will rarely use? ...

with a simple autoblock/kleimheist/hedden knot, id say yes ... ive had 2 people this year tell me they remembered how to tie a kleimheist that i showed them years ago how to tie and they rarely use as sport climbers/TR tough guys and gals ... IMO the penberthy is simple and similar enough that if you know one of the above knots, youll remember it with minimal practice

in fact for rap safety one could easily have newer climbers carry a single strand with loops ... its superior knot for that application IMO because you can vary the friction by 1 strand vs 2 for the prussic/kleimheist .. mr penberthy i believe introduce the knot for this specific application

mr fasulo in "self rescue 2nd edition" had this to say ...

Rock Climbing Photo: self rescue 2nd pt1
self rescue 2nd pt1

Rock Climbing Photo: self rescue 2nd pt2
self rescue 2nd pt2

Rock Climbing Photo: self rescue 2nd pt3
self rescue 2nd pt3


darn it ... they just vote to revoke food stamps for "scammers" ... in V. HUNGRY !!!

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 25, 2013
In a pinch I've modified tying a taut line hitch into a prussik tied with the end of the rope. Four wraps per side seems like the minimum I'd trust, for what it's worth I'm not sure I'd trust it with a live load, but it's easy to evaluate for someone familiar with prussiking.
Rock Climbing Photo: Prussik with end of rope
Prussik with end of rope
Noah.J
From Salt Lake City, UT
Joined Apr 12, 2012
393 points
Sep 25, 2013
Noah, I have also used the modified tautline as you pictured. Someone taught this to me a while back as the "stitch prusik." Although it may be more difficult to move up and down the line, it seems like a better solution to me as it is extremely easy for most climbers (I would think) to properly evaluate if it is tied correctly, will it hold, etc. I guess if you are familiar enough with other knots and confident in their use like the OP, one should go with those. Andy P.
From Wisconsin
Joined Apr 20, 2013
50 points
Sep 25, 2013
After thinking this over for a bit, I rigged a weighted setup, and after testing a few different options, I found it easier to use the penberthy. It's simple to think of it as basically an in-line kleimheist. Doing this I was able to easily rig a 3:1 with both truck and progress capture friction hitches using only ~15' of rope end and a few biners.

Thanks for the idea Mr. bearbreeder!
Noah.J
From Salt Lake City, UT
Joined Apr 12, 2012
393 points
Sep 25, 2013
its actually more of a single strand hedden since the eye is at the bottom, not at the top like a kleimheist

but you get the idea ... its quite easy to remember how to tie

glad u found it of use

as a side note ... the hedden knot will hold on even nylon slings on my 8mm mammut phoenix, as well as with dyneema slings ... while a 4 wrap kleimheist will slip

IMO as rope get thinner and thinner we should start figuring out what knots and materials work with those skinny lines ...

remember that many of the rescue and other commonly cited tests are done on 10.5mm+ lines

;)

Rock Climbing Photo: 4 wrap hedden holding body weight on a 8mm mammut ...
4 wrap hedden holding body weight on a 8mm mammut phoenix
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 26, 2013
Gotta make me Google Hedden knot.. I see how it is. Haha.. Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Joined Jul 21, 2012
40 points
Sep 26, 2013
one interesting thing about the hedden is that you can turn it into a knot with an ABSURD amount of gripping power, but still be fairly releasable ... all with a slight variation

basically you do one wrap UNDER the eye, then the rest above like a hedden

mr. prohaska published this two decades ago

Rock Climbing Photo: nylon highway #30 pt1
nylon highway #30 pt1


Rock Climbing Photo: nylon highway #30 pt2
nylon highway #30 pt2


"pleasurable" knots ... hmmmmm =P

proof in the pudding ... heres 25mm nylon holding body weight just fine with 1 wrap under and two wraps over ... on old 7mm stiff cord no less !!!

Rock Climbing Photo: 25mm sling body weight on 7mm nylon cord, modified...
25mm sling body weight on 7mm nylon cord, modified hedden


so if you ever need to jug back up a single half/twin ... or your tag line ...

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 26, 2013
I pull out my Scotty because his transwarp theory is correct

--I've never beamed three people from two targets onto one pad before!
Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
545 points
Sep 26, 2013
bearbreeder wrote:
one interesting thing about the hedden is that you can turn it into a knot with an ABSURD amount of gripping power, but still be fairly releasable ... all with a slight variation basically you do one wrap UNDER the eye, then the rest above like a hedden mr. prohaska published this two decades ago "pleasurable" knots ... hmmmmm =P proof in the pudding ... heres 25mm nylon holding body weight just fine with 1 wrap under and two wraps over ... on old 7mm stiff cord no less !!! so if you ever need to jug back up a single half/twin ... or your tag line ... ;)


Thanks! Definitely interested in tying one with webbing.
Bill Kirby
From Baltimore Maryland
Joined Jul 21, 2012
40 points
Sep 27, 2013
I tried the Penberthy last night on a whim at the gym, and even with just the foggy memory of the picture I saw in this thread I found it easy to tie first time - so I am now a believer it could work for me. I will do some experiments this weekend at the crag, I am looking forward to it.

bearbreeder - this is a cool thread, can we start a biweekly bearbreeder column in which we get tech tips from you? I wish there were more people like you on the internet spreading knowledge instead of hoarding it. We could call it "bear's nifty tricks" or something!
Andy P.
From Wisconsin
Joined Apr 20, 2013
50 points
Sep 27, 2013
Andy P. wrote:
I tried the Penberthy last night on a whim at the gym, and even with just the foggy memory of the picture I saw in this thread I found it easy to tie first time - so I am now a believer it could work for me. I will do some experiments this weekend at the crag, I am looking forward to it. bearbreeder - this is a cool thread, can we start a biweekly bearbreeder column in which we get tech tips from you? I wish there were more people like you on the internet spreading knowledge instead of hoarding it. We could call it "bear's nifty tricks" or something!


lol .. im a lazy 5.4 intraweb scammer ... so im probably not qualified

one thing about the pemberthy ... there is a trick to tying it so that it holds on stiff ropes of the same size ... basically you wrap it around the rope going up and then wrap it once or twice back down the rope going down ... this locks the coils into place and significantly increases the holding power

ill put up a post with pics later today or tmr with the details ...

i might be headed out this weekend in the rain to practice basic rescue ... if i do make it out, im gonna test some of these knots under body weight with the good ole squamish mud on the ropes

;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 27, 2013
Andy P. wrote:
bearbreeder - this is a cool thread, can we start a biweekly bearbreeder column in which we get tech tips from you? I wish there were more people like you on the internet spreading knowledge instead of hoarding it. We could call it "bear's nifty tricks" or something!


I second that motion! Bearbreeder, I’ve learned a few things from you already and find that even when discussing a technique I know, I still am given something to think about with the endless little “interesting thing to know” and “something to keep in mind” side notes. I really do appreciate it.
Kingk
Joined Apr 12, 2013
0 points
Sep 27, 2013
all right ...

as promised heres some random blabbing on how to make the hedden style knots (including the penberthy) super gripping

just a warning ... this is not a "how to" ... its how i do it ... you could die ... you should seek professional instruction ... i could be a 10 year old kid typing this all out on his nonmindo gaming system for all MPers know ...

first i want to start with the hedden, as its the simplest ... i assume everyone knows how to tie one its basically an upside down kleimheist ...

we need to separate the different parts of the knot into

- the inner coils
- the outer coils
- the additional or bottom coils

mr. prohaska's diagram from Nylon HIghway #30 in my above post shows this quite clearly

the below is using a 7mm red mammut static cord on an 8mm orange edelrid merlin dynamic rope

--------------------------------------------------

1. the first part i want to touch on is the inner coils of the knot ... they are the ones that you wind UPWARD right above the eye

Rock Climbing Photo: inner coils hedden
inner coils hedden


now what most people do with a kleimheist or a hedden is the simply put the end in the hole to finish (thats what she or he said!) ... the problem as you can see below when working with similar size cord is that the stiffness of the cord keeps the inner coils from binding

Rock Climbing Photo: loose inner coils on a finished hedden, wont grip
loose inner coils on a finished hedden, wont grip


the solution is to re-wrap the line DOWNWARDS back to the eye over the inner coils ... these are called outer coils they serve to secure the inner coils to the rope, thus increasing the grip ... usually anywhere from 1-3 wraps downwards will do the trick

Rock Climbing Photo: rewrapping twice downwards for the outer coils to ...
rewrapping twice downwards for the outer coils to finish


as you can see now the coils are griping ... now some of the outer coils will straighten out under load as in the pic, thats no big deal ... the tension is on the inner coils regardless

Rock Climbing Photo: re-wrapped hedden under tension
re-wrapped hedden under tension


to release you simply loosen the outer coil strand slightly ... the more coils the hard it is to work loose of course

Rock Climbing Photo: loosening hedden
loosening hedden


--------------------------------------------------

2. the second way to increase the holding power and make the knot easier to release IMO is to add a bottom coil UNDER the eye ....

you can see this below, we basically start the hedden with one wrap under the eye

Rock Climbing Photo: wrap under eye for bottom coil, prohaska hedden
wrap under eye for bottom coil, prohaska hedden


now wrap it above like a normal hedden, up with inner and finish with outer coils

Rock Climbing Photo: prohaska hedden wrapping coils
prohaska hedden wrapping coils


and voila ... we have a prohaska-hedden variation with better gripping power IMO

Rock Climbing Photo: prohaska-hedden variation finished
prohaska-hedden variation finished


--------------------------------------------------

3. now lets get to the penberthy .... since its a hedden style knot we can increase its holding power by adding a bottom coil and outer coils

tie the normal overhand and add a single wrap BELOW the eye ..

Rock Climbing Photo: penberthy bottom coil
penberthy bottom coil


tie it upwards with inner coils normally, and then finish with 1-3 outer coils back down to the eye

Rock Climbing Photo: penberthy inner then outer coils
penberthy inner then outer coils


et voila ... youll find the specific number of inner/outer coils youll need for it to hold, it all depends on the cord, the rope and the conditions

Rock Climbing Photo: finished penberthy with bottom, inner, outer coils
finished penberthy with bottom, inner, outer coils


--------------------------------------------------

4. now a bit of body weight testing ... FYI my lard AZN lazy azz weights 170 lbs or so ... also as a WARNING your results may vary from mine depending on the materials, conditions and knot tying skills ...

the following pics used the 8mm dynamic rope as the prussik cord, and the 7mm static cord as the "rope" ... basically a scenario you should never have using the thicker cord as the prussik

here is the prohaska-penberthy (for lack of a better term) with bottom/inner/outer coils ... i grabbed it while it was under load to take the pic

Rock Climbing Photo: prohaska-penberthy under load 8mm orange on 7mm re...
prohaska-penberthy under load 8mm orange on 7mm red


here is the proshaska-hedden (again for lack of a better term) under load ....

Rock Climbing Photo: prohaska-hedden under load 8mm orange on 7mm red
prohaska-hedden under load 8mm orange on 7mm red


i tried a 4 wrap prussik with the same materials ... it simply wouldnt grip at all ...

Rock Climbing Photo: 4 wrap prussik failed to grip, 8mm orange on 7mm r...
4 wrap prussik failed to grip, 8mm orange on 7mm red


a bellunese, or 6 coil blakes hitch did grip generally, but there might be some slip ...

Rock Climbing Photo: bellunese under load 8mm orange on 7mm red
bellunese under load 8mm orange on 7mm red


---------------------

5. now of course you can use the same bottom/inner/outer technique with webbing, though its not as necessary as slings are generally nice and pliable (unlike stiff cord) and this helps the grip

Rock Climbing Photo: prohaska-hedden ... bottom coils, inner coils, the...
prohaska-hedden ... bottom coils, inner coils, then finish with outer coils


25mm nylon sling on 7mm cord under load

Rock Climbing Photo: prohaska-hedden under load 25mm red sling on 7mm r...
prohaska-hedden under load 25mm red sling on 7mm red cord


just to give you and idea on the ABSURD gripping power of the prohaska-hedden with webbing ... here is a 10mm dynex sling on a ~2-3mm nylon string under full body weight (i was worried the string would break and id go SPLAT)

Rock Climbing Photo: prohaska-hedden under load 10mm dynex sling on str...
prohaska-hedden under load 10mm dynex sling on string


--------------------------------------------------

as a final note ... all this variation of course increases the complexity of the hedden/penberthy ... but IMO its not that hard to remember with a slight bit of practice

the basic hedden/penberthy is still exceptionally easy to tie and remember for years IMO ... and works well on cord/slings

when would you need all this holding power? .... well if your dealing with half and twin ropes and need to work off a single strand it may be useful ... but in that case i recommend you use the prohaska-hedden on a nylon sling rather than cord, it will hold better and release easier

or if youre trying to use and old stiff rope for friction hitches on the same size diameter ...

realistically most climbers wont need or use these variations ...

thanks of course to those who research and tested these knots and variations decades ago, mr penberthy, prohaska and bachmann

and thats all there is to it folks


;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 28, 2013
so in the end, you're using cord or slings anyway??

it's interesting, but I would have just called this the application of the penberthy hitch thread, or sex and a clinton abridged
Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
545 points
Sep 28, 2013
Buff Johnson wrote:
so in the end, you're using cord or slings anyway?? it's interesting, but I would have just called this the application of the penberthy hitch thread, or sex and a clinton abridged


no youre using the rope as shown in the first post in an emergency if you LACK slings or cord ... its a skill just like biner brakes, munters, etc ...

in the following posts, the additional information was done on separate cord similar size for visual clarity for how to increase the holding power ...

as the hitch will generally hold on same size cord/rope ... ie. the tail end of the rope

the sling with the hedden variations is just an extra bit of stuff for those who are interested on something that grips on thin single half/twins

to put it simply, those who are interested and understand ..... will get it

those who dont, theyll keep on h8ting
;)
bearbreeder
Joined Mar 1, 2009
25 points
Sep 28, 2013
don't hate the kbear Buff Johnson
Joined Dec 19, 2005
545 points


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