IS CLIMBING BOOTY “THEFT BY FINDING”?

Anything you leave at the crag is trash that needs to be removed. Your project draws are trash that needs to be removed. Take them down each day or your just leaving trash at the crag. Don't be lazy and practice your aid skills. That being said I have returned plenty of gear when I know who it belongs to as well as trying to find out who it belongs to when I don't know within reason. Anything in the backcountry left behind needs to be removed if it's not for safety such as anchors.

It's safe to assume then everything you have found at the crag: cams, stoppers slings, draws ect. you have tossed in the trash accordingly and none of it is hanging on your rack?

KyleT wrote:It's safe to assume then everything you have found at the crag: cams, stoppers slings, draws ect. you have tossed in the trash accordingly and none of it is hanging on your rack?

He said he's returned a bit of the trash. But hasn't really taken a stand on how he determines whether he will return it or not. Interesting for someone with what seems to be a strong opinion.

Trevor. wrote:My rule is if you know whose it is, it's not booty. Otherwise, keep that shit! Project draws being an obvious exception.

That is a terrible rule, Trevor.

Do you treat other lost items (cell phone at a park) the same?

Kyle, I understand your point of view.

If anyone ever finds my car or savings account jammed in a crack on a rock face, I'd like them back. Will send you good karma and reward you with beer.

But seriously, I suppose I could just keep climbing and ignore the gear. Though the next person is likely to take that nut, or cam, or whatever.

I like that MP gives us a place to say, "Hey, I had an epic, someone got injured, and had to leave half my rack on this route." I don't like that it allows for "Hey, I couldn't get a BD nut out on this route. If you find it, I want it back."

Mathias wrote:Kyle, I like that MP gives us a place to say, "Hey, I had an epic, someone got injured, and had to leave half my rack on this route." I don't like that it allows for "Hey, I couldn't get a BD nut out on this route. If you find it, I want it back."

+1 Point!
Locker wear arrr ewe!

Mathias wrote:Kyle, I understand your point of view. If anyone ever finds my car or savings account jammed in a crack on a rock face, I'd like them back. Will send you good karma and reward you with beer. But seriously, I suppose I could just keep climbing and ignore the gear. Though the next person is likely to take that nut, or cam, or whatever. I like that MP gives us a place to say, "Hey, I had an epic, someone got injured, and had to leave half my rack on this route." I don't like that it allows for "Hey, I couldn't get a BD nut out on this route. If you find it, I want it back."

"Hey, I like or don't like that MP allows" would be a great thread. I would be sure put in work boots before opening and reading.

Mathias wrote:But seriously, I suppose I could just keep climbing and ignore the gear. Though the next person is likely to take that nut, or cam, or whatever.

Interesting point, if we assume someone else is willing to take what does not belong to them, is it then okay for you or I to beat them to it?

Mathias wrote:"Hey, I had an epic, someone got injured, and had to leave half my rack on this route." I don't like that it allows for "Hey, I couldn't get a BD nut out on this route. If you find it, I want it back."

If you don't like someones post about a lost stopper than by all means ignore it, taking something that does not belong to you is stealing, regardless of the circumstances in which the item was left unattended.

KyleT wrote: taking something that does not belong to you is stealing, regardless of the circumstances in which the item was left unattended.

Well, not exactly. OP started this thread trying to elucidate the terms of lost and found gear. It seems the intent makes a big difference here. If someone 'abandoned' the gear, meaning they have not intention of retrieving it, it is not stealing.

Any other circumstance would be stealing.

Hence the ambiguiouty and why it is generally the legal (and moral) thing to try and contact the owner in a public forum of sorts.

KyleT wrote:It's safe to assume then everything you have found at the crag: cams, stoppers slings, draws ect. you have tossed in the trash accordingly and none of it is hanging on your rack?

Being twice as old as you and having done my part to clean up the crags where I have lived yes my rack is mostly trash that I have recycled. Have packed out countless haulbags full climber trash not including their left behind gear. Not my job really to tell you how I go about returning things punks will always pick at things to justify. But usually it starts out with I don't mind getting that stuck piece for you and here you go have a nice day.

Have problem with me and my ethics come to Moab and climb and judge for yourself rather than banter in the cyber world. This shadow boxing is for those that don't rather than those that do. Gotta go and clean up the place since most that visit here aren't as respectful as they should be.

Ok, just a little thunk exercise here.

Joe is climbing up P3 of zzz, gets in over his head at 90', makes a rational decision that it is better to lose 2 pieces than his ass. Bails.
Jane 2 days later climbs zzz, gets up 80' looses confidence, bails on a nut (she got balls, that gurl!),
Fast forward 2 weeks, we have 5 more parties who have bailed, each one a little lower, we have 7 'bail belays', lets says 15 pieces of "trash" on one pitch of one climb at one crag in one area. Multiply by too many.
Along comes Amy, you know, bad ass 'onsight 13's' Amy. Up she goes, practically free-soloing.
Amy has 3 choices
1) Leave the trash.
2) Clean the trash, attempt to contact each party, sort the gear, yada yada yada.
3) BOOTY!
I'm afraid that if every piece of gear which is left due to "I'm scared", "It's Raining", "I can't get it out", etc. is just left to rot, we will be perceived as more of a pariah than we already are.
I say we clean up after ourselves, and what you do with the trash is your moral dilemma, not a legal issue.
LOCKER!!

Oh, and one of my nicknames is 'The Trash Man', because of the garbage, and i don't mean gear, which i carry out, every time, everywhere. Leave it better than you found it is a legacy we are all capable of.
End of psalm 28...!

Muscrat that is a interesting thought experiment, however improbable it might be.

The moral, and maybe even legal, way to go about it is try and contact the owner. You may say it's not a legal issue, but you don't get to choose which laws apply to you. Again, as OP is letting us know, it's a grey area and has to do with intent on both parties behalf. Just the legal reality of it all, like it or not (which is OP's point).

I also collect trash, spent many hours cleaning up the beaches of lake michigan when I lived there, bu that has literally nothing to do with returning a found item to it's owner. There's no karma point threshold you reach for cleaning up which then allow you to keep.

Can we play another thought game?
Handicapped young kid from a poor family has been climbing for a few years. Ready to start trad leading, but damn it, he has to bail on his last lead of the day, he can't summon the mental strength to make that next move and the rain is rolling in. Partner says he has to go, climbing time is up. He leaves a couple cams and raps off. He can't drive and wont get a ride for a couple days, so he posts on MP about it.

Tough shit kid? Should have planned better?
Yeah, you could say that, if you are so inclined.

What this really proves though, is that you can make up any situation and they will each have to be judged individually. And in the case that you do not know, which is most of the time, which side should you err on?

Budman, when you start an argument off with "Well I'm older so..." and end with "Come see me face to face!" you risk losing any creditability you may have had.

All of these discussions tend to have the same information over and over again. My takeaway is the same every time.

Some people will try to get gear back to the person who lost it. Some people will keep the gear. Both groups have their own way to justify what they do. $50 means different things to different demographics.

I try to find the owner of any gear that I find (not nuts or biners). I am certainly not sad if I end up keeping the gear, but I usually hope to find the owner. But I am in the demographic where I can go and get a $50 cam if I really want one.

~ Gabe

TSluiter wrote:Muscrat Can we play another thought game? Handicapped young kid from a poor family has been climbing for a few years. Ready to start trad leading, but damn it, he has to bail on his last lead of the day, he can't summon the mental strength to make that next move and the rain is rolling in. Partner says he has to go, climbing time is up. He leaves a couple cams and raps off. He can't drive and wont get a ride for a couple days, so he posts on MP about it. Tough shit kid? Should have planned better?

IN this case, not only would i get the gear back to the kid, after hearing the story, but would offer to help them learning, etc. And yes, i think one of the great things about this community, so far, is the morality, honesty, thoughtfulness, and all around goodness of the majority of climbers. Where else, in what other activity (this is a redundant question, i am not looking for answers!) can you leave $1k worth of gear at the base of a crag, and the vast majority of the time, it is there when you get back down to it.
And i think this is a morality post, the OP considered. Who is going to prosecute the theft of a used, abandoned, $12 nut? Get a laugh, call the cops.

Why to many post to read them all but this is my policy.

Development gear is hands off.
I have no interest in other folks draws.
Quick links and leaver/chicken biners become mine
Cams become mine.
If a dispute comes up based on this I usually tell the guy with the issue to get "bent"

Bill Kirby wrote: "Hey, I like or don't like that MP allows" would be a great thread. I would be sure put in work boots before opening and reading.

I didn't mean that MP should not let people post about how they lost a nut or left a flip flop behind, or whatever it may be. I meant I dislike that people feel encouraged to post such things.

However, my dislike for it does not mean I feel people shouldn't do it. And I generally ignore posts of such nature unless I've actually found something that matches the description. People can post whatever they like, I simple think it'd be worth thinking about how important that [insert lost or abandoned item here] is, before you ask to see if someone "found" it so they can return it to you at the expense of their own time and money. And again, just my personal opinion.

Muscrat wrote: IN this case, not only would i get the gear back to the kid, after hearing the story, but would offer to help them learning, etc. And yes, i think one of the great things about this community, so far, is the morality, honesty, thoughtfulness, and all around goodness of the majority of climbers.

Right on!

KyleT wrote: Interesting point, if we assume someone else is willing to take what does not belong to them, is it then okay for you or I to beat them to it? If you don't like someones post about a lost stopper than by all means ignore it, taking something that does not belong to you is stealing, regardless of the circumstances in which the item was left unattended.

I think it's up to ME to decide what I'm going to do with abandoned gear. If I move it, is it my responsibility to try and find the owner? I don't think so. It doesn't mean I WON'T, but no Australian or UK case law is going to compel me to do so.

If someone leaves their wallet somewhere, I can safely assume it was not abandoned. If someone leave rock protection in the rock, I assume they left it intentional. Therefore it is abandoned.

Mathias wrote: I didn't mean that MP should not let people post about how they lost a nut or left a flip flop behind, or whatever it may be. I meant I dislike that people feel encouraged to post such things. However, my dislike for it does not mean I feel people shouldn't do it. And I generally ignore posts of such nature unless I've actually found something that matches the description. People can post whatever they like, I simple think it'd be worth thinking about how important that [insert lost or abandoned item here] is, before you ask to see if someone "found" it so they can return it to you at the expense of their own time and money. And again, just my personal opinion.

The thread doesn't just have to be about booty. Posts could be "I like MP because I feel like a winner cause I know everything" or I don't like MP because I get my feelings hurt.