Top Roping on a Large Cliff

I'm trying to climb on a large 150 ft cliff that has no fixed protection so belaying from the ground is not very inconvenient. I have no issues building my anchor and extending it over the cliff edge, its getting the belayer somewhere that's been hairy. The belayer can't stand on top of the cliff because of the rope running on the cliff edge and a hanging belay was also kind of hairy. Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Climb somewhere else?

But really...what's wrong with extending the belay / belayer out to the cliff edge and belaying from above?

Erik Jenson wrote:I'm trying to climb on a large 150 ft cliff that has no fixed protection

That's what they make cams and nuts for.

Or why not belay from the ground?

Why can't you belay from the ground ?

You can tie two ropes together , but obviously the knot cannot pass through the anchor .

Also , quite a bit of rope stretch on a two rope TR .

I used to to do 2 rope TR's a lot in Joshua Tree , at crags like Hemingway etc...

vincent L. wrote:Why can't you belay from the ground ? You can tie two ropes together , but obviously the knot cannot pass through the anchor . Also , quite a bit of rope stretch on a two rope TR . I used to to do 2 rope TR's a lot in Joshua Tree , at crags like Hemingway etc...

dont fall in the first 30 feet if you are doing a 150ft TR ...

as to the OP ... going over the edge is a basic climbing skill ...

use a fixed line to go over ... to be REALLY safe fold that fixed line in half so that you have two independent strands

there ARE ways as well to belay at the cliff edge by setting up a masterpoint lower on the same rope ... but all this you should get a real person to show you, not learn over the intrawebs

these are basic skills every climber should learn

;)

you. are. going. to. die.

Isn't the proper term that you mountain project d bags use "yer gonna die". Get it right.

The running rope on the cliffs edge shouldn't be a problem unless the edge is razor sharp. If that's the case you could put some kind of shield on the edge to keep the rope from grinding. Sounds like a lot of work, maybe you could just lead it on gear.

Previous poster is incorrect. You do NOT want your top rope moving over the cliff edge. Build a static rope anchor at the top with the master point below the cliff edge. Take the slack end of the static rope, with a knot at the end of it, and use that for the belayer to lower himself down to the master point where he can secure himself and belay from there.

^the irony was lost on you, was it not my friend?^

and Davarious, don't you mean we mtnproj DBs? takes one to know one, don't it?

If you use two ropes to belay from below, much of the rope stretch can be taken out of the system by loading it and taking slack out before starting to climb...

I hesitate to give the below answer (a stance belay) since I so seldom find it a good fit in general ... and it is of course fraught with dangers ... and knowing when any stance belay is a good fit for the circumstances takes experience.

Even so, a few weeks ago I caught a fall by a second on the below with no problem. Felt solid and comfortable. Crux was relatively low on the pitch so lots of rope out to keep peak forces down - perhaps part of the conditions for determining a good fit(or not).

Maybe some here will want to persuade me from using the technique and I would listen carefully. In fact, I post here in part to draw out things I haven't considered below.

• I sit at the edge with large and comfortable contact area between buttocks and rock;
• a tether runs from my harness's rope tie-in points back to the anchor and is taught so I can't slip over the edge; even so, the final stance is such that the tether sees virtually no climber's weight in a fall;
• ATC is on belay loop and hanging down between the thighs.
• rope runs from ATC to climber in mostly a straight path; some kind of inward notch in the cliff edge is helpful/preferable while insuring the ATC won't bind against anything or pinch my thigh against rock.

While belaying,

• I minimize slack in the system at all times.
• excess rope is stacked next to me in a way that I can readily pay it back out if lowering is needed.

Dangerous Issues:

• a fall could be bad when the climber moves to the side of me up onto the cliff top; perhaps a cliff top with an easy exit is part of the conditions making this a good fit;
• a painfully sharp object might only be discovered once climber falls.

And:

• it may get prohibitively onerous if my partner is hang-dogging a lot;
• can make escape-the-belay more challenging.

^?!

Does anyone actually do this?
Why not just use the mp of the anchor to top belay from?

Medic741 wrote:^?! Does anyone actually do this? Why not just use the mp of the anchor to top belay from?

Why not run the rope over the edge and put the MP below that? The belayer's stance I described - if a good fit for the circumstances - avoids the need for padding an edge that a weighted rope otherwise runs over.

I'll add that almost all the times I recall doing this were on the last pitch of a multi-pitch.

Learn rope management on shorter climbs...then you will not have to ask this question. Don't put yourself and your partner in a situation you cannot get out of. You are not ready for this climb.

Bill Lawry wrote:I hesitate to give the below answer (a stance belay) since I so seldom find it a good fit in general ... and it is of course fraught with dangers ... and knowing when any stance belay is a good fit for the circumstances takes experience. Even so, a few weeks ago I caught a fall by a second on the below with no problem. Felt solid and comfortable. Crux was relatively low on the pitch so lots of rope out to keep peak forces down - perhaps part of the conditions for determining a good fit(or not). Maybe some here will want to persuade me from using the technique and I would listen carefully. In fact, I post here in part to draw out things I haven't considered below. * I sit at the edge with large and comfortable contact area between buttocks and rock; * a tether runs from my harness's rope tie-in points back to the anchor and is taught so I can't slip over the edge; even so, the final stance is such that the tether sees virtually no climber's weight in a fall; * ATC is on belay loop and hanging down between the thighs. * rope runs from ATC to climber in mostly a straight path; some kind of inward notch in the cliff edge is helpful/preferable while insuring the ATC won't bind against anything or pinch my thigh against rock. While belaying, * I minimize slack in the system at all times. * excess rope is stacked next to me in a way that I can readily pay it back out if lowering is needed. Dangerous Issues: * a fall could be bad when the climber moves to the side of me up onto the cliff top; perhaps a cliff top with an easy exit is part of the conditions making this a good fit; * a painfully sharp object might only be discovered once climber falls. And: * it may get prohibitively onerous if my partner is hang-dogging a lot; * can make escape-the-belay more challenging.

bad idea all around.

saguaro sandy wrote: bad idea all around.

Why? If I'm picturing this correctly, it just sounds like he's belaying from above without a redirect, while facing down/away from the cliff, and with a tether running behind him and to the anchor...

If so, this is extremely common (and safe) practice. As mentioned, it's not the most comfortable way to brake...but it's safe. Maybe I'm not picturing what's actually being described.

Ryan Nevius wrote: ... If I'm picturing this correctly, it just sounds like he's belaying from above without a redirect, while facing down/away from the cliff, and with a tether running behind him and to the anchor... Maybe I'm not picturing what's actually being described.

In a nutshell, that is what's described.

unless the bottom is covered with poison ivy or water/waves I would belay from the bottom 99% of the time. passing a knot is easy to do with a grigri or a third person. top belays suck all around.

Bill Lawry wrote: * I sit at the edge with large and comfortable contact area between buttocks and rock; * a tether runs from my harness's rope tie-in points back to the anchor and is taught so I can't slip over the edge; even so, the final stance is such that the tether sees virtually no climber's weight in a fall; * ATC is on belay loop and hanging down between the thighs. * rope runs from ATC to climber in mostly a straight path.....

This is what is done hundreds if not thousands of times every year at crags like paradise forks or the top of any multipitch without bolted anchors. Except I usually extend the anchor and belay directly off the anchor so I'm right at the cliff's edge. Sure the rope runs over the edge but the belayer is right there to make sure abrasion or loose rocks aren't an issue.

If you don't find the perfect spot to sit on there is a risk for impaling if you second falls, pinch if your second traverses or takes a pengie, breaking and releasing are super awkward that way. Why not make things easier and extend webbing over the lip to MP from below the edge and belay from there?

There is no way the webbing is going to abrade this way! Even if your second dangles a lot the force will be redistributed through MP before it makes impact on webbing on the edge of rock.