"Flowing" and thinking

Jake said: That is indeed the question. It's something different for everyone and for most, I think it might even be something different from moment to moment.

well said my friend! the moment to moment and the fact that its paradoxical is key. those two points of views/statements could have a WHOLE thread + 30 more just about them.

do you think its a coincidence that tao, zen, tantra, buddhas sutras, etc is paradoxical? so much of those texts are totally paradoxical. i think not...know the yin and the yang, the light and the dark, the real and the unreal, etc

this thread is an example of bringing something (this subject) from dark to light.

The Stoned Master wrote: How come there is a difference, qualitatively and process speaking, between memory and its realtionship to conciousness/unconciousness? why when "flowing" is our memory different versus when not flowing? only in hindsight do we apply the labels, etc. what does that tell you? if anything? our memory and its function/effectiveness changes and very little is understood by science at this point.

That's a fantastic question. Could you expand a little more on what you mean regarding the connection between memory and flow? How is the experience of memory different for you when you achieve a flow state?

Just to frame my opinion of the flow state, I would say that awareness is akin to consciousness, and unawareness (or a more elegant word) is akin to unconsciousness. In addition, it's probably more accurate to describe consciousness as operating on a continuum as opposed to describing it as a binary process (<--pardon the digression). So, for me, the flow state is a state of heightened present moment awareness (consciousness), and memory does not play a role. In fact, I think that's one of the reasons the flow state is so appealing because when you pull onto the route/problem/crux sequence you've fallen off a billion times you forget past failures and focus on the moment at hand. I haven't read the neuroscience/meditation literature but I'd bet it would shed some light on this topic.

The Stoned Master wrote:so much of those texts are totally paradoxical. i think not...know the yin and the yang, the light and the dark, the real and the unreal, etc

This thread reminded me of a Bruce Lee quote: "When the opponent expand, I contract, When he contracts, I expand, And when there is an opportunity, I do not hit--it hits all by itself." Mostly the "it hits all by itself" part. With enough training, visualization, etc., it's almost like it can become automatic.

Flow is something I have experienced a fair bit (mostly downhill mountainbiking) and something I have thought about extensively.

Letting go is essential for me, letting go of everything but the immediate now. Many times I've blown my line or crashed after a thought creeps in and stays, even if its about braking for the coming turn or something related to the ride. Action without thought and being one with the trail and the bike (or the cliff or board or w/e) is what flow/being in the zone/fully engrossed in the now is for me.

I wrote a much longer post then my browser crashed and I don't have time to rewrite it all now unfortunately. I'll check back in and try to add more later!

A southern lady walks in to her appointment with her urologist.
The doctor politely asks her "Ma'am what is your flow like?"
To which she replies "my flo is linoleum, but what does that have to do with my appointment? "

Sorry I have nothing existential to add to the flow of this thread. Please proceed.

Matt N wrote:surfing would blow some of your guys' minds

agreed. There is almost no flow to climbing compared to surfing.

The Stoned Master wrote:When you have that/those moment(s) where "it all just came together" and you "were one with the moment" and sent that problem/route that just seemed out of touch for you (difficulty wise for an example) are you thinking?

By definition, flow can't happen on such a problem. Flow in athletics occurs in a zone where the level difficulty is high enough to avoid boredom but low enough to avoid frustration or fear. If it seems out of touch, you have to work and concentrate so hard that you can't flow.

For me, flow occurs on endurance days, not project days. I'll do ~thirty boulder problems up to 1 grade below my ability level. I arrange the order so there is a bunch of easy problems to warm up on, the toughest are in the middle of the routine, and then I cool down on easy ones as I get tired. Flow occurs for me right in the middle of the routine. Because I already have the climbs fairly wired, there is no need to think.

Projects are always at the edge of ability for me, either physically or mentally, so there is no way to achieve flow on those days.

I agree with 5.sam as well, however I think climbing requires a different kind of focus and commitment. Not harder or easier just different - for instance, the conditions with surfing are constantly changing, and they're are so many variables that affect wave height, tides, sand bars etc..... With climbing they do change a bit but for the most part you know what you're getting in to with most climbs that you have either wired of have been working on.

Flow is an individual state of mind /performance and achievable in many domains of life (athletics, work, music). One can't generalize to state that there is more flow in xx sport than xx. Except at the individual (5.sam) level.
In my experience when achieved it is very similar whether with yoga, climbing. I have only surfed occasionally so don't have a reference. Plus, I don't have a skill level to get to the edge where it is possible.

rogerk wrote: Flow in athletics occurs in a zone where the level difficulty is high enough to avoid boredom but low enough to avoid frustration or fear. If it seems out of touch, you have to work and concentrate so hard that you can't flow.

Here's the graphic version of what I just said:
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