Planning a rock climbing vacation this winter?

And a quick shout out to my buddy Locker:
You know all those routes at Castlewood of me and my buddies?
Every one of them has had at least some. Can't even tell, right?

Mike Lane wrote:And a quick shout out to my buddy Locker: You know all those routes at Castlewood of me and my buddies? Every one of them has had at least some. Can't even tell, right?

The level of modification necessary to make Castlewood NOT SUCK would probably involve an open bar and a stripper pole.

Jake Jones wrote: Should have stopped there instead of stacking another layer onto your self-inflicted embarrassment. The discussion evolved (or devolved, take your pick) to the nature of climbing on sharp ass virgin limestone, so it is "pertinent". It directly contributes to the topic, which, again, has become climbing on limestone. Not looking at it, but climbing on it. Some of the guys you're talking to in here were likely putting up LIMESTONE routes while you (and possibly me) were still shitting pea soup into our Huggies. And you have admitted to never climbing on it. Think about that for a second before you utter another response.

Let's take a moment to remember we're talking about a recreational activity which we seriously enjoy - happy times here. This is a positive experience. You climb your rocks, I'll climb mine. Jake, Mike, you guys climb way harder than I do and are probably pretty cool! I'd seriously love to get the chance to climb on some limestone with you.

All I'm saying is, even though I've never been to Goblins State Park, I'll call foul when somebody topples a rock. Even though I've never been to Mt. Rushmore, I'll be mad if somebody gives Teddy a facelift. And even though I don't climb on limestone, I'll happily float my non-aggressive opinion out there. It is, after all, a rock which shares lots of qualities with the rocks upon which I happily climb. Feel free to call me out when I write something that worries you, about rocks upon which you have never climbed, on a public forum such as this.

Ok. Peace and goodwill. Have a good day.

EDIT to increase politeness

Oh, and this bothers me too: Tree-Chop Article

WDW4 wrote:Oh, and this bothers me too: Tree-Chop Article

There are more trees in the world than there are established rock climbs. Past time to even things out.

Red wrote:How much potential is there for new routes? With only 70 routes (45-90 feet tall), you might want to advertise to people that are psyched on developing new routes.

All seventeen routes at the Point (5.9 to 12c) are 100' to 130' above sea-level.

The potential for new routes is essentially unlimited. I mention new route development in Support Brac Climbing, but it's not an invitation to just anyone. I'm not running a school on how to put up quality routes.

If you'd like to put up some new routes, email me. But as anyone who has experience at this knows, it will be mostly hard work. You will be supplying blood, sweat, tears and money. I'll supply the lodging, ropes, titanium bolts, glue and specific expertise.

Red wrote:I might be interested in checking this place out in years to come. Once there is more to climb.

"Oh Grandma," said Little Red Riding Hood, "What a big ego you have!"

John Byrnes wrote: All seventeen routes at the Point (5.9 to 12c) are 100' to 130' above sea-level. The potential for new routes is essentially unlimited. I mention new route development in Support Brac Climbing, but it's not an invitation to just anyone. I'm not running a school on how to put up quality routes. If you'd like to put up some new routes, email me. But as anyone who has experience at this knows, it will be mostly hard work. You will be supplying blood, sweat, tears and money. I'll supply the lodging, ropes, titanium bolts, glue and specific expertise. "Oh Grandma," said Little Red Riding Hood, "What a big ego you have!"

Shit, I'll take you up on that offer! It won't be this winter... but maybe next! Would love to get my hands on some unclimbed limestone!

I'll "comfortize" based on local ethics ;-)

To all those wondering about this place, there is nothing like climbing near the sea, and if you've never climbed on featured limestone (none in the US), then you should check this place out!

John Byrnes wrote: All seventeen routes at the Point (5.9 to 12c) are 100' to 130' above sea-level. The potential for new routes is essentially unlimited. I mention new route development in Support Brac Climbing, but it's not an invitation to just anyone. I'm not running a school on how to put up quality routes. If you'd like to put up some new routes, email me. But as anyone who has experience at this knows, it will be mostly hard work. You will be supplying blood, sweat, tears and money. I'll supply the lodging, ropes, titanium bolts, glue and specific expertise. "Oh Grandma," said Little Red Riding Hood, "What a big ego you have!"

why will I be crying when I'm bolting a route?

whats the surfing like there? I assume its mostly hurricane swell but do they get consistent swell in the spring also??

nicelegs wrote: The level of modification necessary to make Castlewood NOT SUCK would probably involve an open bar and a stripper pole.

You'd swing on a pole for us John? Deal! Since I'm a plumber I can get one set up asap. So instead of an open bar would you settle for a flask and using one of the dozen or so rock pipes strewn about the canyon?

Ironically as we speak I am putting in 12 hour days getting the new Shotgun Willy's ready to open by Halloween.

nicelegs wrote: Very few people commenting here have put up routes anywhere. Many of them don't even realize how modified the routes they climb every weekend are.

Absolutely true. But somehow this makes them qualified to judge others who are putting up routes on rock they've never seen. They've never put their hand on a hold that would puncture their tips, cut their palms, or lacerate their cuticles because someone has comfortized the holds. They're still alive because someone removed all the loose rock so it wouldn't hit them, their belayer or their rope.

These wankers can't understand how making the holds comfortable doesn't necessarily change the grade. I've put up routes from 5.7 to 5.12, all well comfortized, and I didn't change the grade of any of them. But I certainly made them more fun to climb.

When I put up a route, I want to enjoy climbing it, not come down with bloody hands, unable to climb for three days. Even more important to me is feedback from other people. I want to hear

"Wow, what a great route!"
NOT
"That thing sucks! I cut both my hands and slammed my elbow into the wall when a foothold broke."

nicelegs wrote:Back on topic, I have a sister living on grand. She says it is a $70 flight to brac. She also says there is a dive boat that'll visit Cuba for a day. Sounds fun. I'll be sure to visit her soon.

I'm very, very skeptical any dive boat can make it to Cuba in a day. Be really careful climbing in Cuba. Their bolts are breaking due to corrosion.

There's a handful of competent climbers on Grand Cayman who fly over to the Brac to climb on a regular basis. If you need a partner, I can put you in touch. Or come down when I'm there.

John, I'd like to say sorry for the thread drift. Cayman looks rad. I only asked the question about comfortizing holds/routes/crags, due to my inexperience with development.
I've never developed shit, limestone or otherwise, and really don't intend to. I was just curious how common/accepted this tactic was amongst developers, on all types of rock.
That said, I probably should have started another thread. Sorry again, and thanks to all the developers out there for all routes! I hope this ends the arguing and name calling and gets back to your original topic.
-Mackley
P.S. I don't want to leave anyone out, so I gotta throw a shoutout to all the gym setters too. Thanks dudes. :)

Imagine climbing a wall where at least some of the holds are like an empty sardine can. We're only talking plinking off the sharp little fingernail width rims around the pockets. And knocking off enough of the tip of the spiny things you get on skyward facing edges so that they won't actually pierce your finger. A lot of times with brand new limestone routes you'll see blood on some of the holds. Cut tips are a bit more than an annoyance, they'll keep you on the ground.

Robbie Mackley wrote:John, I'd like to say sorry for the thread drift. Cayman looks rad. I only asked the question about comfortizing holds/routes/crags, due to my inexperience with development. I've never developed shit, limestone or otherwise, and really don't intend to. I was just curious how common/accepted this tactic was amongst developers, on all types of rock.

No worries Robbie.

The real answer is: It Depends. There's a wide spectrum of what's appropriate, regardless of what the wankers say.

I've done traditional first ascents on granite where all I did was brush some lichen away with my hand and clean dirt from a crack with a nut-tool in order to place a nut.

On the other hand, as Mike says, virgin limestone pockets are commonly dreadful. Not only are the edges like sardine cans, they can have little spiky things in them. These can puncture your fingers and hands if you weight them, and cut the backs of your hands/fingers too. No one wants to climb on that, but once they're gone, you have an excellent route.

Lazy developers let subsequent climbers clean their routes by climbing on them, so they can declare "Behold! I am ethical!" but the final result is the same, isn't it? I don't agree with this approach since so many climbers have a shitty experience.

Anyway, there's a lot more that goes into making quality sport route than just slamming in a few bolts.

John Byrnes wrote:Anyway, there's a lot more that goes into making quality sport route than just slamming in a few bolts.

So true. Even slamming bolts is a long-thought out process for the route to be quality.

WDW4 wrote: However, differentiating between "chipping" and "filing" requires some pretty specific definitions. They both involve modifying hand or foot holds. They both make the route easier/more comfortable to do. They both bring a route down to the climbers level, rather than requiring the climber to rise to the rock.

Filing down sharp edges does not necessarily make the route easier - sometimes by filing down sharp barnacles you can create a sloper and/or a slicker foothold.

John Byrnes wrote: No worries Robbie. The real answer is: It Depends. There's a wide spectrum of what's appropriate, regardless of what the wankers say. I've done traditional first ascents on granite where all I did was brush some lichen away with my hand and clean dirt from a crack with a nut-tool in order to place a nut. On the other hand, as Mike says, virgin limestone pockets are commonly dreadful. Not only are the edges like sardine cans, they can have little spiky things in them. These can puncture your fingers and hands if you weight them, and cut the backs of your hands/fingers too. No one wants to climb on that, but once they're gone, you have an excellent route. Lazy developers let subsequent climbers clean their routes by climbing on them, so they can declare "Behold! I am ethical!" but the final result is the same, isn't it? I don't agree with this approach since so many climbers have a shitty experience. Anyway, there's a lot more that goes into making quality sport route than just slamming in a few bolts.

Truth. A decent analogy is many of us really enjoy packaged chicken or beef from the grocery store but if we saw what went on, in some instances, for that meat to end up in that package, we may not want to eat it. :-)

As I said before, if a few trips up a rock will do the same thing as a few passes of a file, it doesn't make much difference.

The takeaways for me are I prefer climbing on sandstone than limestone, I respect limestone crag developers for the hard work they put in for local climbers, and I think as a general (and personal) principle, I'd rather walk away from a cliff than heavily modify it to make it easier/less painful to climb.

Climb on.

WDW4 wrote:As I said before, if a few trips up a rock will do the same thing as a few passes of a file, it doesn't make much difference.

Actually it makes a huge difference to those (in your scenario) anonymous climbers who have to suffer to clean the route. And that's IF they clean the route. Most sharp, uncleaned routes are shunned by climbers so that what might have been an excellent route never gets any traffic.

WDW4 wrote:The takeaways for me are I prefer climbing on sandstone than limestone, I respect limestone crag developers for the hard work they put in for local climbers, and I think as a general (and personal) principle, I'd rather walk away from a cliff than heavily modify it to make it easier/less painful to climb.

Don't let the door slap you in the ass.

John Byrnes wrote: Actually it makes a huge difference to those (in your scenario) anonymous climbers who have to suffer to clean the route. And that's IF they clean the route. Most sharp, uncleaned routes are shunned by climbers so that what might have been an excellent route never gets any traffic.

My point is that the end result of filing and climbing are the same. I'm agreeing with you here.

John Byrnes wrote:Don't let the door slap you in the ass.

Sorry I got your dander up John. Its a beautiful day outside.

My girlfriend and I are looking into visiting brac in the near future! The area looks amazing!!