Thoughts on Pakistan

those pics of your home in Pakistan are breathtaking

Great points Scott and Ali.

The only optimistic spin I can put onto this terrible tragedy is:

For terrorist acts like this to be a strategically effective tactic for Al Qaeda and affiliated groups, it has to meet at least 2 conditions - #1 it must fuel a response from some "religiously impure entity" such as the USA gov, NATO, Indian Gov, secular arab government, etc. (We'll assume for a given that the "response", when a terrorist act is directed toward a government, will never be to simply cede government control to muslim fundamentalists.)

#2 The local public's perception of the terrorist act plus any ensuing response (again, from the powerful targeted groups) then has to, on balance, tip in favor of the terrorists and increase the money, power, human recruitment, or positive public perception of Al Qaeda and their viewpoint.

I don't see how attacking a bunch of Eastern European and Chinese climbers will ultimately fulfill either of these conditions.

Rather than be able to attack people or assets in the employ of the western entities they claim to be retaliating against (the US Gov) they murdered a bunch of international climbers who were spending time and money on non-political travel to Pakistan. My heart goes out to Ghulam Muhammad and all of the other people who work in the tourism/hiking/climbing sectors of the Pakistani Economy, and to the small towns who rely on travelers. The long-term victims will be the rural Pakistanis in these regions and job sectors, and I can't see how this act makes Al Qaeda more powerful.

I think (and hope) that these attacks on balance, reduce or demonstrate Al Qaeda's reduced ability to operate effectively.

JLP wrote:If you want to see mountains, the planet is full of other options.

The options might be there, but they dont quite compare. This isn't my opinion, take a look at these interviews:

http://www.unclimbed.com/steve-house-talks-about-his-mountaineering-experience-in-pakistan/

unclimbed.com/conrad-anker-…

Thank you Scott and Ali for the interesting posts. Your write-ups are thought-provoking since they stir up questions and facts and are more than just opinions written in sloppy style. I would be glad to touch base with you guys, too. Maybe we can make this work?

All the best

Moritz B. wrote:Thank you Scott and Ali for the interesting posts. Your write-ups are thought-provoking since they stir up questions and facts and are more than just opinions written in sloppy style. I would be glad to touch base with you guys, too. Maybe we can make this work? All the best

Im meeting Scott tomorrow. If you're in Colorado, let me know, I'll be happy to talk and go over some maps and photos of unclimbed peaks down there.

The latest on Nanga Parbat is that the local police has identified all suspects and have brought their families in for questioning. Hopefully they'll be able to find these guys within the next week.

To keep this thread alive, I thought these reads were interesting, especially Steve's blog...

http://www.climbing.com/news/chilling-accounts-of-nanga-parbat-massacres/

http://steveswensonsblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/attack-on-climbers-in-pakistan.html

Cheers,
Cory

_ _ _ _ _ wrote: let me shrink that down: 1. compare education and experience to show GMBurns is a superior authority. 2. denounce American meddling in the affairs of other countries 3. advocate "years of education" (whatever that means) and breaking up countries and helping each of them succeed (i.e. meddling in the affairs of other countries) 4. handjobs for everyone! Good thing we're here to know what's best for Pakistan, especially in light of the fact that we have intimate knowledge of Brazil and Chile. 5. offer extremely unhelpful anecdote. if I was your father, I'd probably sponstaneously hit you across the chest too.

heh - you're a riot...oh, wait, what was your name again?

I don't advocate meddling with other countries's affairs. I'm just saying that simply stating that bombing another country's citizen's isn't as easy as "well, they're not doing it so we need do it." If one wants to end corruption and violence then drone attacks on innocent civilians aren't going to cut it.

GMBurns wrote: If one wants to end corruption and violence then drone attacks on innocent civilians aren't going to cut it.

exactly. actions do genuinly speak louder than words. Americas actions tell me they dont authentically (it sounds nice to say it) care. the statistics are known to the drone units, the higher ups, etc AND they continue! Im terribly disappointed with this cowardly form of warfare.

if America truly cared (our government does represent the whole, thats the idea at least) they would stop immediately. But it continues...

The Stoned Master - I got your e-mail and responded but Im not sure if it went through. Did you get my e-mail?

The Stoned Master wrote:if America truly cared (our government does represent the whole, thats the idea at least) they would stop immediately. But it continues...

Our current Administration cares deeply about transparency and fairness.
Here's another fine example of keeping your enemies close and your friends closer??
NSA bugs EU offices and computer networks.

Way to go...

Just saw this posted on Dane's site:

Nanga Parbat Massacre Investigators Shot Dead in Chilas

altitudepakistan.blogspot.c…

Erik,
There were three separate incidents this week - all targeted government personnel involved in handling the case. I'll call up Pakistan this evening and get all the details.

Got em:

explorersweb.com/everest_k2…

Very interesting posts here by Scott and Ali - thanks guys. Consider this a bump, hopefully someone else will enjoy the read and spend hours down the rabbit hole of reading about climbing in Pakistan as I did. I hope to visit someday - perhaps I will have the skill to climb while I'm there.

Yes, this is great to read. Ali, you posted a link to thoughts on climbing in Pakistan on unclimbed.com. It doesn't seem to be available. I don't suppose you have it archived somewhere do you? I would really like to read it.

Thank you both Scott and Ali for the information and discussion.