Thoughts on Pakistan
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I've never been to Pakistan, though not for lack of trying. |
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Scott, |
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What needs to happen is Pakistanis need to rise up fully and say enough is enough and destroy the "fundamentalist pieces of shit"s and the corrupt bastards. If that happened the US wouldn't have to send drones there. For all the carnage they cause, I bet it is less then sending in ground troops to do the same job, and also less than if the targeted people were allowed to keep up their mayhem. Ending the asinine feud with India would be a good start too. It is a shame a bunch of good people get lumped in with the bad, but there comes a time when a country as a whole has to take responsibility for not reigning in it's crackpot citizens (as we Americans must do too) |
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Hey Ali- |
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M Sprague wrote:If that happened the US wouldn't have to send drones there. For all the carnage they cause, I bet it is less then ... if the targeted people were allowed to keep up their mayhem.How did you come to make this assessment? The US Government releases almost no information on its targets. In fact, they don't even know the identity of roughly 25% of the supposed "militants" they kill. The President offers no evidence against these men, even when the targets are American citizens. It's certainly comforting to assume that Uncle Sam is killin' the right bad guys. I think, though, that history offers ample evidence that our leaders often make mistakes (or worse). If there is no transparency and no accountability, we have no way of knowing who is being killed and why. |
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I agree, buts its easier said than done. I'll give you a small example. A few years ago a mosque and associated madrassa (religious school) decided to implement shariah law. They went around shutting down brothels, confiscating DVDs from stores etc, and confronted the police in Islamabad. The Pakistani army got involved and after a 3-day showdown the fighters will killed and a large number of arrests were made. Peace prevailed - you would think this was over and done with, but it wasn't. |
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Great post, Ali. I agree with everything you said, particularly "The only way this will stop is through education, through empowering women in the area, and educating them". It is a very complicated and difficult situation and is going to take a lot of sacrifice to change it. |
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I disagree that this is a complicated issue. I feel that all the problems we are experiencing around the world stem from the same place. A dysfunctional conditioning of the human mind where the egoic self dominates our thoughts and actions. Men in particular being highly dysfunctional. |
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Scott Bennett wrote: How did you come to make this assessment? The US Government releases almost no information on its targets. In fact, they don't even know the identity of roughly 25% of the supposed "militants" they kill. The President offers no evidence against these men, even when the targets are American citizens. It's certainly comforting to assume that Uncle Sam is killin' the right bad guys. I think, though, that history offers ample evidence that our leaders often make mistakes (or worse). If there is no transparency and no accountability, we have no way of knowing who is being killed and why.Get real. It is a war situation, not a neighborhood police action where you can go in, arrest everybody, interview them all etc. If there is a know terrorist leader they have been tracking and he is hanging around with a bunch of armed people in an ineffectively governed part of western Pakistan, it is damn good odds that they are of the same ilk. As far as the American citizens, I think if you have declared war on Americans and are advocating killing innocent people and are an actual danger, than you have no basis to squeal "Unfair!" when you get smoked by a missile. If they could be caught safely and brought back for a trail, sure, it should be done, but even a common criminal hostage taker in the United states will get killed by a sniper if need be to save others. |
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M Sprague would you find it justified if a small group of Americans and Joe American went over to China and killed as many People as had happened at 9/11 and they retaliated killing your innocent brother and sister in the process? But, they killed Joe American. |
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Don't let the acts of a few people affect the rest. You have no right to violate any other countries. Look more into protecting your own than violating others. |
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sonvclimbing wrote:M Sprague would you find it justified if a small group of Americans and Joe American went over to China and killed as many People as had happened at 9/11 and they retaliated killing your brother and sister in the process? But, they killed Joe American.If my government didn't have effective control over the region where we were and wouldn't or couldn't arrest them, sure. It would suck to say the least, but if my brother and sister knew what they had done they should get the hell away from them. (yes I know, easier said than done, especially for the women in the case of western Pakistan). Assuming it wasn't a case of incompetence or complete disregard on the Chinese part, I would direct my anger to the terrorists who created the situation. |
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sonvclimbing wrote:Don't let the acts of a few people affect the rest. You have no right to violate any other countries. Look more into protecting your own than violating others.If a country claims sovereignty, that includes taking responsibility for law and order and making sure their citizens don't harm others. If we had armed groups living in the US that constantly attacked Canada and wouldn't do anything about it, Canada would have every right to hold us responsible and do something. |
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M Sprague, |
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M Sprague wrote: If a country claims sovereignty, that includes taking responsibility for law and order and making sure their citizens don't harm others. If we had armed groups living in the US that constantly attacked Canada and wouldn't do anything about it, Canada would have every right to hold us responsible and do something.Mark, how much have you lived outside the US? I don't mean traveled for a few months, but actually lived for an extended period of time? And if you have, how many were developing countries or less-developed countries? I'm curious what your education is regarding intl security. I don't mean how much you read the newspapers, but do you have an MSc. or PhD in the subject? For starters, my answer is two developing countries (Chile and Brazil) and I have an MSc in Europen and Intl Politics from the University of Edinburgh. I focused my dissertation on Intl Security and the role of NATO outside of Europe. I'm now an artist, so I could be completely out of the loop. I've been known to be stupid, too, so apologies in advance. I ask because from my perspective it seems your education on the subject is lacking. I could be wrong, and if I am, my apologies, but seriously, it's not that easy. Culture varies greatly not just from country to country, but from region to region within countries, and this can make the country almost seem to more than one (Brasil is a wonderful example of this - the north and south really could / should be two different countries...and I have a great joke on this but I'll defer until someone is actually curious to hear it). I don't want to justify the 9/11 attacks, but this mindset with the drones is not that dissimilar to what you're advocating with the drones. Yeah, the US was attacked, but who really fired the first shot...and when? A lot of this would not be as much of a problem today if our leaders of the 80s hadn't bailed from Afghanistan. And don't buy into the idea that the US couldn't support in the region because then the Soviets would know who helped...that's a crock of shit. The Soviets knew before they even started losing. Also, many colonial countries were often created or developed based on a western idea of government, and this doesn't always work with the existing culture as a framework. So, throw a foreign structure at a region and force all to comply and what do you get? A helluva lot of pressure that isn't resolved via discussion because they never wanted discussion. They just wanted to continue leading their lives. But since you tossed it together, they might as well fight for it, especially if it means the winner gets the bomb. It's about education, and it's about walking a really fine line. Corruption is a great excuse for instability, but it's not like people can protest and end corruption over night. There needs to be YEARS of education, years of ensuring that the bomb doesn't end up in the wrong hands, years of building a model society based on THAT society's culture, and not pissing people off. It may mean breaking up countries and helping each of those countries succeed. I'll give you anecdote. My dad used to visit on occasion. He, my wife, and I would be sitting on the couch watching TV and he'd blast his forearm across my chest for no apparent reason other than to be a pain in the ass. I'd look at him and his "what are you looking at expression" and I'd turn around and slap my wife's knee. I'll give you a hint...my dad never got in trouble. |
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I'll answer a couple of your questions, Mike, but I don't want to get into a huge political discussion that takes over the forum and drowns out the positive thoughts the OP expressed about the region. It is also obvious that people are taking my comments as an apology for any bad decisions our (or any western governments) have made in the past, which I don't mean to do at all. Mike Oxlong wrote:M Sprague, Are you really ok with a foreign country flying remote controlled planes over the US and killing your family and many other innocent civilians in an attempt to kill someone who had not been charged with a crime or had any public evidence produced against them but instead had been deemed fit for assassination without trial by a secret court instead of trying to apprehend them while not allowing the US to do the same in their country? ... Scott.No, but conditions in USA are not at all analogous to western Pakistan. For one thing, we have a (somewhat) functioning police force and judicial system and a government which has full control, therefor an adequate agent for the foreign government to seek redress. If a rogue American group attacked China, we would most likely be hunting them down ourselves. Pakistan has been very inconsistent in that regard. There are plenty of examples of duplicity on the part of Pakistani security services, some that could easily be construed as acts of war, imo. As far as your point about not trying to apprehend them, what do you want the US to do, send a friendly sheriff over to knock on the door with a warrant for arrest? Trying to arrest a terrorist warlord would be very dangerous for our forces and likely end up being a huge fight that would kill the target, people around and maybe even Pakistani forces, more so than most drone strikes. That is ridiculous. |
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Mr. Burns, does anything you wrote have anything to do with my words that you quoted? Are you claiming that my interpretation of international law is incorrect? (I wasn't really attempting to make a technically perfect legal argument) Rather, I see an attempt to front load your comments with something like "I climb 5.15 and you only climb 13s, so what is your opinion on how to bolt worth?". To answer you though, no, I do not have a MSc. or PhD. in international politics from U of Edinburgh. I did study a bit while at Harvard though. I haven't lived extensively in third world, oops, "developing" countries, though I did have an Italian girlfriend for a while, so your statement that "Culture varies greatly not just from country to country, but from region to region within countries" was very helpful. I should have added that to my " It is a very complicated and difficult situation". |
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M Sprague wrote:Mr. Burns, does anything you wrote have anything to do with my words that you quoted? Are you claiming that my interpretation of international law is incorrect? (I wasn't really attempting to make a technically perfect legal argument) Rather, I see an attempt to front load your comments with something like "I climb 5.15 and you only climb 13s, so what is your opinion on how to bolt worth?". To answer you though, no, I do not have a MSc. or PhD. in international politics from U of Edinburgh. I did study a bit while at Harvard though. I haven't lived extensively in third world, oops, "developing" countries, though I did have an Italian girlfriend for a while, so your statement that "Culture varies greatly not just from country to country, but from region to region within countries" was very helpful. I should have added that to my " It is a very complicated and difficult situation".You made multiple comments that appeared to me to be obviously construed from rose-colored sunglasses, ones made by Americans for Americans without consideration for which other hues, tones, or values, for example, may be more or less important to other cultures than they are to Americans. I didn't quote all of them for context, so I chose the final quote that resonated with me the most in the end. Going after it's "crackpot citizens" isn't so easy. For one, what is defined as "crackpot" could be totally different from one culture to the next. A crackpot in the U.S. could be totally normal and valued in another country. That's not up to us to decide that, but we certainly do try to do so. I'm not condoning the killers's actions, but the answer isn't really just about policing and corruption and taking control; there's a bigger picture involved that requires one to look at the source of tension. Why does Pakistan exist in it's current state? Why does Afghanistan have the history that it does? Why is it important for powerful governments to play such a role with these countries in the region, and why does it matter that "Western culture" be applied. And, does this tension derive from said outside pressure? In the U.S., business is done with organizations and companies. In South America, business is done with people. It's different. To go back to my anecdote, if another country bombed my family in an attempt to kill a terrorist who wasn't with my family, you damn well better believe I'm going to be pissed at the bomber. I might already not like the terrorist. If he's local and bad news, and if I'm a good person just trying to live my life, I may not want anything to with him and hope every day that the police arrest him...but I'm not going to let the bomber off for free. They're the ones who pulled the trigger, they're the ones who misfired, they're the ones who should have been better at nailing the target, etc. If the police shoot up my house when the gang leader lives next door, the police are absolutely, positively not getting away with it if I can help it. Simply put, they need to do a better job at their jobs. How they are encouraged to do so is up to debate, but the reaction shouldn't be a surprise. We're making the same mistakes we did in Vietnam. Win the hearts of the locals...by torching their villages because we suspect they are housing the enemy. Except now we have different technology. The answer lies in changing the tension. In my opinion that's done via dialogue and understanding. How that's achieved is another matter and can be debated many times over. |
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Jake Jones wrote:I They fucking hate us. All of us, and deeply.People have been pissed at other people and murdering in masses long before United States existed. And not everyone "hates" Americans. There are a ton of private American organizations doing great things in tough parts of the world; giving time, compassion, and resources to those less fortunate without trying to assimilate or proselytize everyone. I'm sure you guys have a fantastic liberal arts education and carefully construct you opinions from the very best liberal media sources available. However the facts stand; those being that historically (over the past 20,000 years) America is far less violent than countless other cultures and civilizations. Also you can't tell me that If any other civilization had the chance to assert global colonization they wouldn't jump at the chance (many tried and failed). We (mostly the British) just did a better job than anyone else. This was completely off topic considering the original post, however, so were the last few responses. Also, by the way, I think Pakistan is a beautiful county with a rich and interesting history. I would love to visit someday. I have heard great things. |
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GMBurns wrote: Mark, how much have you lived outside the US? I don't mean traveled for a few months, but actually lived for an extended period of time? And if you have, how many were developing countries or less-developed countries? I'm curious what your education is regarding intl security. I don't mean how much you read the newspapers, but do you have an MSc. or PhD in the subject? For starters, my answer is two developing countries (Chile and Brazil) and I have an MSc in Europen and Intl Politics from the University of Edinburgh. I focused my dissertation on Intl Security and the role of NATO outside of Europe. I'm now an artist, so I could be completely out of the loop. I've been known to be stupid, too, so apologies in advance. I ask because from my perspective it seems your education on the subject is lacking. I could be wrong, and if I am, my apologies, but seriously, it's not that easy. Culture varies greatly not just from country to country, but from region to region within countries, and this can make the country almost seem to more than one (Brasil is a wonderful example of this - the north and south really could / should be two different countries...and I have a great joke on this but I'll defer until someone is actually curious to hear it). I don't want to justify the 9/11 attacks, but this mindset with the drones is not that dissimilar to what you're advocating with the drones. Yeah, the US was attacked, but who really fired the first shot...and when? A lot of this would not be as much of a problem today if our leaders of the 80s hadn't bailed from Afghanistan. And don't buy into the idea that the US couldn't support in the region because then the Soviets would know who helped...that's a crock of shit. The Soviets knew before they even started losing. Also, many colonial countries were often created or developed based on a western idea of government, and this doesn't always work with the existing culture as a framework. So, throw a foreign structure at a region and force all to comply and what do you get? A helluva lot of pressure that isn't resolved via discussion because they never wanted discussion. They just wanted to continue leading their lives. But since you tossed it together, they might as well fight for it, especially if it means the winner gets the bomb. It's about education, and it's about walking a really fine line. Corruption is a great excuse for instability, but it's not like people can protest and end corruption over night. There needs to be YEARS of education, years of ensuring that the bomb doesn't end up in the wrong hands, years of building a model society based on THAT society's culture, and not pissing people off. It may mean breaking up countries and helping each of those countries succeed. I'll give you anecdote. My dad used to visit on occasion. He, my wife, and I would be sitting on the couch watching TV and he'd blast his forearm across my chest for no apparent reason other than to be a pain in the ass. I'd look at him and his "what are you looking at expression" and I'd turn around and slap my wife's knee. I'll give you a hint...my dad never got in trouble.let me shrink that down: 1. compare education and experience to show GMBurns is a superior authority. 2. denounce American meddling in the affairs of other countries 3. advocate "years of education" (whatever that means) and breaking up countries and helping each of them succeed (i.e. meddling in the affairs of other countries) 4. handjobs for everyone! Good thing we're here to know what's best for Pakistan, especially in light of the fact that we have intimate knowledge of Brazil and Chile. 5. offer extremely unhelpful anecdote. if I was your father, I'd probably sponstaneously hit you across the chest too. |
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Folks, |