Acceptance of death and climbing

Davis Stevenson wrote:
you are actually four times as likely to get killed driving per mile than climbing per pitch.

fossana wrote: A more useful comparison is # of deaths based on time engaged in the above activities, which makes climbing look far less favorable. I think more about falling/injury when I'm on a rope. For me soloing is about tuning it out and focusing on my next moves.

If Davis' statistics are correct, then I think the #deaths/time will actually compare even better for climbing.

The time it takes to drive 1 mile will vary, at highway speeds about 1 minute, at city speeds about 2 minutes. In heavy traffic, perhaps 10 minutes. Personally, I do most of my miles at the 1-2 minute range speeds, though I don't know what a nation-wide average would be. (And, as risk of death goes, the miles that take 10 minutes or more are going to be pretty low. Collisions/accidents at speeds under 6mph generally don't kill people.) But, I think 2 minutes/mile is a reasonable guesstimate.

Time per pitch, I expect, is generally longer. (And, pitch is such a vague measurement.) A rope-length aid pitch would be much longer than a top-rope 8m (25ft) local cragging day pitch. Trad-leading will, generally, be longer than sport, which again will be longer than top-rope. Hang-dogging takes longer than clean. And, of course, there's anchor-building, anchor-cleaning, lowering, etc -- all part of the pitch. I'd be surprised, based on my time outdoors, if this averaged less than 10 minutes per pitch.

I'd be incredibly surprised if the average time per pitch climbed were less than the average time per mile driven. So, that would translate to deaths/minute being even lower for climbing vs driving.

Will S wrote: Well, I'm still here and I don't think about anything when free soloing other than maybe the feel of the hold I am currently on. Certainly not thinking about death up there. I didn't start free soloing until 30yo, at which point I'd been climbing over 10 years, and didn't start doing it a lot until about 33yo. Not an impetuous youth thing. At that point I was climbing 5 days a week on real rock, and free soloing probably 3 days a week. It was 100% confidence in my own ability that allowed me to do it, not acceptance of death.

I was glad to see Will’s post. I did a lot of free soloing this past year and I remember wondering if I was pushing it too hard, because I was never scared. I’ve been climbing twenty some years now and only in the past couple years started soloing.
I’m with Will S. – I don’t think about death when I free solo. I am 100 % in the moment and only thinking of the moves. I’m not a super technical climber. On my best day, at the end of a season if I’ve been climbing a lot I can lead 5.8 trad or WI4 multiipitch routes without wigging the eff out.

Fear is a funny thing though. I’ve been scared shitless on a 5.6 single pitch crack lead on Mt. Lemon, AZ. I’ve also free soloed multipitch WI3 and 5.7 routes in Alaska and the fear never entered my mind. You never know when its going to creep in and challenge your climb.

Every season when I’m making the transition from rock climbing to ice climbing or vice versa it plays out like this:
1st climb: “Man, this sucks I wish I was still on Ice/Rock.
2nd climb: “Hey, this aint so bad.”
3rd climb: “Man, I LOVE this shit!”

I wonder what the consensus is for other soloists. Do you solo with fear, or is does it never enter your mind?

Dave Lynch asked: I wonder what the consensus is for other soloists. Do you solo with fear, or is does it never enter your mind?

For me the fear is there but its a useful tool (much more quiet and subtle then my first years) that keeps me grounded versus, say, when I first starting climbing, rope or not, fear was/could be more of a "in your face" decision maker. Now fear is with me but as a good friend instead of a drill instructor. I've practiced, and applied effort after effort to get to this point, this point of "intuneness" with fear instead of struggling/fighting/wishing it wasn't there (or so overpowering).

One aspect that allowed me to reach this point of comfort was the acceptance of my death. I meditated on peeling away from the rock a lot and plummeting to my death. This helped me accept the responsibility that comes with free soloing.

You all?

Matt N,

Well done. You have again focused on small part of a large statement and found a way to correct it. I believe your mind feels better now that it has reinforced its sense of being right.

I never read that article, until now, but I was aware that this happened when I wrote that. I am not too concerned with being entirely accurate in what I say or even being completely wrong in my opinions. I am expressing general ideas for others to consider as I am considering what other have said as well. I am not interested in going back and forth over insignificant details.

So what do think about what I have said? Do you feel there is a role our emotional intelligence plays in our actions? Or is it more the logical thought processes that dictate?

I think relationships are easy to examine. Love or hatred can easily override logic. For example, someone treats you like shit repeatedly but you still want to be with them despite your friends obvious advice to move on.

The falls Honnold describes in that article don't appear to have been severe enough to trigger much of an emotional response. I wonder how he would feel if he survived a fall from 400 ft. resulting in a long hospital stay. Maybe no different.

Alex Washburne wrote: ... but rather how we rationalize exposing ourselves to these extra risks...

This is exactly what I am talking about. If you think deaths from climbing is riskier than 100 other common activities either you have an over inflated sense of your sport/self or you failed math. Remember, the subject line is DEATH not injury.

Davis Stevenson wrote: ?....... Personally, mountain biking scares me much more than climbing... Mountain biking is the most dangerous thing I do-- Less of a death risk, IMO, but much higher risk of crippling injuries. .....

Why didn't say this a month ago??? ( which was when I broke my neck at C4,C5,C6 and C7 on a mountian bike)

It was said above, the very act of living means you will die. You need to choose a way of life that will provide the best quality of living before it happens

I see most of the posters are in total denial, which is to be expected.

The more life I live, the greater value I place on it.

I'm over 60 and a keen climber but infinitely more safety conscious than when I was young. I should have died many times when I was a carefree young fella. Just lucky.

Chris,

Denial of what? A lot of things I'm sure but to what are you refering? If you don't mind I'm curious how injured you were in your solo fall and why you don't solo anymore. Just a choice, fear?

"This is exactly what I am talking about. If you think deaths from climbing is riskier than 100 other common activities either you have an over inflated sense of your sport/self or you failed math. Remember, the subject line is DEATH not injury."

Regardless of what statistics say, it's all about perception, is it not. One might be totally safe even climbing 10 ft. above good pro with a clean fall. Look at a noobs who think they are totally fine because they placed a few pieces of gear (shitty) and then take whippers. This sport can be pretty safe if your gear holds up and you know how to climb. But shit can happen for example: Ropes can be cut, gear can fail, rock fall, and there are many others.

When I was climbing tons I was more comfortable running it out, headspace is important and being aware of your own limitations and trusting yourself plays a big part of it.
Sport climbing I believe is a different story (generally much safer).
Then it all comes back to staying cool and worrying about falling(that's my fear, I hate falling!)

Chris Owen wrote:I see most of the posters are in total denial, .

I went in da nile totally, once. There's frigging crocs in dere!

Matt N wrote: Have you read the injuries and accidents threads? "Routine" climbing is getting to be the most dangerous.

No. People screw up and/or bad things happen. You are still much more likely to get injured or killed doing almost anything else in your life besides climbing.

It might be true that, statistically speaking, climbing is no more dangerous than a lot of other sports. But, it's also different. I surf a few times a week and I've never thought of it as a dangerous activity like I do climbing, except on those rare occasions when the swell is huge or I'm surfing a new spot with weird currents or shallow reef. If I'm going to die surfing, it's going to be a freak accident that was probably out of my control.

IMO, the thing that makes climbing so much more dangerous than these other sports is the fact that a stupid mistake can instantly cost you your life. Everyone is fallible and it scares the hell out of me when I read about experienced climbers who kill themselves doing things that even a newbie would know to avoid. There's no analog to rapping off the end of your rope or forgetting to clip the anchor in surfing or mountain biking.

The objective hazards like lighting and rockfall are what they are. But it seems like a large percentage of climbers end up killing themselves through avoidable mistakes. It's sad, scary, and something always to be mindful of. Call it glorification if you want, but if you F up when playing at this sport you are sent home in a box.

Dave C wrote: No. People screw up and/or bad things happen. You are still much more likely to get injured or killed doing almost anything else in your life besides climbing.

The majority of people posting to this forum will die from cancer or heart disease, but does that fact make climbing any less dangerous?

Jason Kim wrote: The majority of people posting to this forum will die from cancer or heart disease, but does that fact make climbing any less dangerous?

No, but it should highlight that life is more dangerous than people think.

and I guess you have never gotten smacked by your board when getting tumbled? I know a guy that lost an eye, and more than one that has sustained a concussion. And the days were not that big.

When I solo, the fear is something that enters my mind far before touching the rock. It has to be rationally dealt with and that is something that keeps me safe. Once on the rock of course, I am 100% focused on feeling every movement and avoiding any snaffus. You can't be absorbed with fear while leading or free-soloing or you will make mistakes.

The biggest danger(for me) in free-soloing lies in the false positive reinforcement of success and this results in pushing the limit with time. I go in phases of free soloing and try to do it after a wave of really testing myself hard on lead and knowing where I'm at. You have to be 100% honest with yourself about your abilities and then you can easily over-come fear of death.

Mike Oxlong wrote:Chris, Denial of what? A lot of things I'm sure but to what are you refering? If you don't mind I'm curious how injured you were in your solo fall and why you don't solo anymore. Just a choice, fear?

Hi Mike - Denial of our ultimate fate I suppose, not really something a healthy person should contemplate too much about. Oddly I think I soloed because I had no one to climb with when I first got to the USA, then it became a habit and I found all sorts of post root cause reasons for doing it. I stopped once I a) found good friends and b) got married and had kids. Perhaps I was never really a hard core soloist.

Wannabe wrote:Death is definitely not okay to me.

Really!? Everyone gives this the props? Totally backwards, mit romney, fear based baloney.

Folks, any civilization predating "whitey" celebrates death because life is a duality; without death, there can be no life. Life offers us experience and being "definitely not okay" with death is about the least gracious approach to life I can imagine. Gratitude is a fundamental aspect of life and you will never, no matter how much you climb, feel complete until you can be gracious toward the entire life cycle.

The eco-system is a system. Not being okay with one cog prevents one from accepting life. Resistance is futile!

That said, I'm never going to partner up with someone who doesn't expect to come back from the day's adventure, but seriously, all the people who agree with this guy obviously need to stop eating at Starbucks & try some psychedelics for breakfast, if only just once.

Hey peeps who aren't OK with death, did you know that the USA murders well over 10 billion animals per year to eat? Seems quite hypocritical to stuff sausage down your throat while claiming that death is just not for you. Oh wait, maybe we should stop murdering people to? Well I'm not ok with death, but I do support a corporatist hierarchy that mechanically rapes nonwhite people, leaving millions to starve in Africa. But wait! We have to save these people by starting a war and murdering thousands of women and children in order to instill a democracy in the mid east. We don't murder them because we hate them, we murder them because we are trying to help them see the light. I am an american, and I am proud to murder both animals & foreigners because I am afraid of death and this is how I save them. Ya'll make me wanna puke into my grande latte cappochinno, SKIM milk cuz i dont wanna get fat but I still want all the BGH so I can climb some rad cracks once I reach heaven cuz im so righteous.

Why does everyone associate death with free-soloing?

The two most common death related climbing accidents are

1) getting DOWN after successfully climbing, &

2) driving home cuz you just epic'd for like 35 hours and now fall asleep at the wheel on some gnarly canyon road.

+1 for the last two comments