tying in to the sharp end

8 with a yosemite finish I see as being perfect. Don't have the YER GUNNA DIE factor of the bowline. Still has the same high stength as a normal eight. And stupid easy to undo after its been weighted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1ZosDmBntE&feature=channel&list=UL

fig 8 wins this test, but bowline snaps at just over 20kn so....

this guy's tests are interesting, watch them all.

Yeah doesn't really matter that the rope broke at 20 as your back will likely break at 10.

That said I almost always use a figure 8, mostly that was what I learned first. Especially on multi pitch as it stays together better.

Now if you want the quickest knot to tie and untie you need to learn the instant bowline. First feed the rope thru the tie in point, then make a slip knot just below in the main body of the rope. Then feed the end of the rope into the loop of the slip knot. While holding the tail in place pull on the main body of the rope. This will cause the slip knot to flip over and create a instant bowline. If you have the balls to lead on this knot, a simple single loop backup will be plenty.

And yes I have used this, and fallen on it. Clearly I didn't die.

visuals for Tim's post: (tied with an additional re-thread backup)

youtube.com/watch?v=PkKkJAx…;feature=g-upl

I trust it and use it for single pitch, but I use the 8 for multi-pitch since my partner's life might depend on being able to double-check it.
I'm not ready to ban the bowline.

Yep that's about it but I was shown with only one loop for the slip knot. Gregger's looks better with the classic double bowline loops.

The guy who showed me was just using it for TR. It's certainly quick.

I only used this simple knot for one real day of climbing. Doing all 10 of the Ten Pins in the Needles and the idea of retying 10 times in a row gave me the input to go with it.

Is the figure 8 with the yosemite finish the image Chris Owen showed on page one of this thread?

I don't intend or expect to win over any converts to the bowline.

I use it in the gym and typically will untie the stopper and the re-thread while being lowered before I touch the ground. 9 times out of 10 I'm out of my knot and pulling the rope before my belayer is out of his ATC.

Again, I realize that that isn't a selling point for most people :0)

Paul Hunnicutt wrote:Is the figure 8 with the yosemite finish the image Chris Owen showed on page one of this thread?

Yes.

This, IMO, is the strongest and safest knot. Ol' faithful.

I mostly climb sport and fall on this knot whilst working projects regularly. The yosemite finish creates the space needed to keep the knot from pulling itself into a hard, stubborn, impossible to undo ball of knot (not to mention, this method keeps the tail of the rope from interfering with clipping, unlike the overhand safety). After falls, you just have to wiggle both sides (like breaking a glow stick)... push/pull the yosemite end out, and voila: unwraps like a charm.

Copperhead wrote:Just read this and remembered this thread. rockandice.com/news/2201-tn… There are several good points here. I had to laugh about tying knots in the end for rappel because I was interested teaching a couple people to climb and had them put knots in the end for a rappel that went to a walk off ledge but still had a large drop beyond it. A guy on the next route admonished us never to tie a knot and I just thought he was an idiot. Clearly it would save a few people each year if the would do it. How many would die from stuck knots?

I read R&I's TNB article as well and the portion concerning bowlines looks to have been written very poorly, almost tongue-in-cheek without any real research. The example they use of the knot 'failing' isn't substantiated - it was likely tied incorrectly or not tied at all.

Tie any knot incorrectly and it has a high likelihood of failure - that isn't reason to 'ban' a particular knot. Be sure whatever knot you prefer is tied correctly.

I usually use the re-threaded bowline, just because I weigh 200+ and it is far easier to untie than an 8. I also think it snugs up/dresses better.

I hear folks on the safety aspect of having a partner not being able to check a bowline as easily.

But in my experience, a partner either knows the knot and can inspect it fine; or they don't, and they say "WTF is that?" and then I re-check it myself. Either way I'm covered.

If I tie it wrong and partner forgets to check, I'm f--ed no matter what knot I chose.

And thanks for those links to knot breaking strength. Doesn't seem compelling to me to pick 8 over bowline, with ~5% strength difference.

Mark Lewis wrote: I read R&I's TNB article as well and the portion concerning bowlines looks to have been written very poorly, almost tongue-in-cheek without any real research. The example they use of the knot 'failing' isn't substantiated - it was likely tied incorrectly or not tied at all. Tie any knot incorrectly and it has a high likelihood of failure - that isn't reason to 'ban' a particular knot. Be sure whatever knot you prefer is tied correctly.

The article was supposed to be a summary of the most common themes of accidents in n a mountaineering. The knot has issues. It is harder to tie, harder to check, and harder to keep tied. This kills a small number of people. The point in the article about climbers not learning from the mistakes in the book is spot on.

it sounds like a belayer issue... swap out belayers to ensure your knot is tied correctly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9skZ27YQd1g

Funny so in this vid the bowline is stronger then the 8... what now?