The AAC and Access Fund. Kiss or Kill?

Malcolm Daly wrote:S.P.L.T. Image, I don't agree that the AF and the AAC should join forces. Their missions are distinct and all climbers should be members of both. Clear and separate missions will allow each organization to best pursue their own goals.

I don't disagree that climbers should join both, my point is that they won't. Likely they will do one or the other, much like jmeizis has chosen the AMGA over the rest. Perhaps I should elaborate on my idea; There would be a representative group that acts as an umbrella for many groups. Each group would get one board member or whatever, the details can be worked out. Why did the AF split from the AAC in the first place?

Malcolm Daly wrote:It's no stretch of the imagination to imagine a diverse group of outdoor recreation organizations to sit on the same side of the table. Imagine if the area around Canyonlands National Park were threatened by oil and gas drilling, tar sands operations, uranium exploration, mining and milling and more potash mining and mills. Why is it a stretch for you to imagine the motos, ATVs, hikers and climbers on the same side of the table? After all, if the area gets blown up, drilled, mined and otherwise fucked up, it will be removed from the recreation equation for all of us. This doesn't mean that we'd have to form a single club for all of us to join. A Super PAC , funded by businesses and organizations that represent the third largest sector of our private economy, Outdoor Recreation, is a reasonable way to present a large force in DC when we have a shared interest to fight for. But I digress. Much like mixing religion and government messes up both, a joining of the AF and the AAC would obscure their mission and make it harder to achieve their goals. Join both organizations. Seems like a no-brainer to me. climb safe, Mal

I agree but I would point out that on only a few issues could these groups all come together. Again, an over-arching central group could represent the collective interest off all "Outdoor Recreation" if these Orgs were willing to become "members" of the Umbrella group.

Crystal Cave in NM is about to the closed and there is apparently nothing the AF can do about it:
mountainproject.com/v/crystal-cave-closed/107741874#a_107750>>>
clearly, AF the and other groups need to form a PAC to fight the interests on tribes and the ineptitude of the Forest Service.

What can the AF do here, specifically?

"What can the AF do here, specifically?"

Get Williamson opened up

Everyone wants their crag saved or protected by the Access Fund. And to prove it, they will pay $35 and then complain that the t-shirt doesn't fit right and the water bottle leaked in their bag after the lid wasn't totally tightened... at best. Don't look at what they send you in the mail, look at what they give you over the long haul and just send them a little money.

If you pick one, pick the Access Fund. And i say this believing in the work of the AAC and feeling they have come around a bend and are on par with the average climber. This is simply because the AF is indespensible. Without it, you probably would not be a climber right now.

And they should be separate organizations that work for climbers as best they can in tandem. One has a specialty, the other works in all sorts of areas.

AF seems to be mostly concerned with stuff out in Colorado and other spots......

In California, not much protecting, or even complaining via the courts.

We have lost Fossel Falls, Castle Crags, Auburn Quarry and Williamson, without squat being done.

Maybe time for AF/California?

Guy Keesee wrote:AF seems to be mostly concerned with stuff out in Colorado and other spots...... In California, not much protecting, or even complaining via the courts. We have lost Fossel Falls, Castle Crags, Auburn Quarry and Williamson, without squat being done. Maybe time for AF/California?

I won't pretend to have all the facts, but I'm pretty sure this is untrue. The Access Fund sued (albeit unsuccessfully) over Cave Rock. And I'm fairly certain they were pivotal in securing access to Jailhouse Rock.

More specifically, according to this the AF is heavily involved in resolving the Auburn Quarry situation.

I think if you look at their track record over the past 15 years they've done a good job of spreading the love around the country.

Every state has Access Fund Regional Coorindators (CA has 5!) AS WELL AS Local Climbing Organizations(some affiliated with the A.F. some not) that can be saught out as a resource in the event of a crag closure or threat of a closure.
Unfortunately many climbers have a habit of climbing in areas without educating themselves on the land/access status or worse, blatantly cross no trespass signs to climb and develop then get bent out of shape when areas are closed by land managers with no hope of re-opening. It is ALWAYS better to ask permission rather than forgiveness when in comes to climbing on someone elses land wether its BLM, USFS, State park, or private group.
By working pro-actively climbers can leverage the political power of the Access Fund to open doors and get a seat at the table when areas are being used for climbing. This can insure that climbing is written into managment plans to insure access for generations to come and displays climbers as a "legitimate user group" not just a bunch of dirt bag hippies hopping fences. More information for support in California can be found here:

http://www.accessfund.org/site/c.tmL5KhNWLrH/b.5052157/k.4F44/Whats_Happening_in_Your_Backyard.htm

Guy Keesee wrote:AF seems to be mostly concerned with stuff out in Colorado and other spots...... In California, not much protecting, or even complaining via the courts. We have lost Fossel Falls, Castle Crags, Auburn Quarry and Williamson, without squat being done. Maybe time for AF/California?

Classic.
I'm gonna guess here, and I admit its a guess, that you have given no support to this non-profit organization that has helped hold back "the man" in San Diego, Josh, Malibu, Pinnacles, The Valley, and every area around Bishop, yet you complain that the relatively obscure crags listed above have not gotten the attention you think they deserve. Yeah, I know, you are the loner-climber who turns his back to society with this sport, thus you don't need to support the organization that supports what you do. Not everyone who does not support the Access Fund (or the AAC) is a self centered idiot... but some are.

Sam.... I have paid dues to AF and FOJT. Please remember rule #1

The spots I aluded to were always open to climbing intill something went down.

Castle Rocks got closed cause some local enviro activist group got the whole place shut down for falcon nesting. even though the studys were flawed.

Same for Williamson....The AF will run from the CBD.

And Fossel Falls may be some 2 bit place to you but I have been climbing there for 40 years..... that got closed cause someone found a map with the true or.iginal property lines.

So Sam please think about this....

I think they (AF) could do a better job out here in CA, if they did, they would gain much more support from US Californians.

Just saying

Guy Keesee wrote:AF seems to be mostly concerned with stuff out in Colorado and other spots...... In California, not much protecting, or even complaining via the courts. We have lost Fossel Falls, Castle Crags, Auburn Quarry and Williamson, without squat being done. Maybe time for AF/California?

AF is helping to get Auburn open and what about Jailhouse? I believe they were involved in getting legitimate access to that crag if I'm not mistaken.

They get my annual support, so does AAC.
The annual journal is worth the AAC membership alone. The journal is more geared towards alpine pursuits which not all climbers are into so I can understand not seeing the value in that org.

I realize an organization like AF cannot do everything but I'm convinced that without a unified voice and experience when it comes to land management issues, a voice like what the Access Fund offers, climbers would be getting more bummed more regularly about lost access.

I'll post from a devil's advocate standpoint:

1. Why does (a potion of) my hard earned money go to these two organizations to pay for their employees to go on climbing trips?

2. Why are most of the events for AAC in CO? Really nice for the members that live there....especially being able to take advantage of the fancy new building.

Regardless, I support both but as the years go by these two lingering questions make me less and less inclined to send money.

Guy, you are absolutely right on that first point... I need to follow rule #1. It was a grumpy day. My bad. I sincerely apologize.

Perhaps you are right on those crags. I dont know. I just know that when i served on the board I watched the employees work tirelessly. As jason Keith put it one afternoon, "I find out the sky is falling somewhere about 3 times a day." And the worst part about it is that the problems are caused by us 90% of the time... big perma draws, dogs jumping hikers or cattle, chalk marks on petroglyphs. But that may not apply to any of the crags you mentioned.

And again, sorry for blowing up.

Sincerely
Sam

Mark E Dixon wrote:Access Fund member and contributor for many years. There is no excuse for any climber NOT to be a member.

Sure there is. Being a member costs money. Some people live paycheck to paycheck. Others don't even have a job. More others feel their money is best spent at a charity. Anyway, the point is that not everyone has money to blow so easily. Don't forget, the average family wealth in America has declined over the past few years whereas the average cost of living has aggressively increased. People have less money to spend on things this decade than they did last.

Sure you could argue that $30 is nothing, and I would agree with you, but to someone who lives paycheck to paycheck or does not have a job, I doubt they would agree with us.

Anyway, the Access Fund and the ASCA are the most important organizations in our sport IMO, and if one were to choose to donate money to an organization, it should be one of those. If you have a job and money, you most certainly should donate to the Access Fund.

Mr. Holmes wrote:Every state has Access Fund Regional Coorindators (CA has 5!) AS WELL AS Local Climbing Organizations(some affiliated with the A.F. some not) that can be saught out as a resource in the event of a crag closure or threat of a closure.

No they dont. There is more than one state that has a bit of climbing in it, but no RC and no LCO. Right now Hawaii is tirelessly fighting a state-wide rock climbing closure action that affects almost all of our roped climbing areas. We have no RC and no LCO. I applied for the RC position, but with no legit LCO, there isint much of a point. I drove to Boulder largely to speak with the AF about this issue. For the past two months I have been in the AF office, or on the phone with them, at least once a week. Anyway, my point is that although we need am LCO, there really isint one. Its more or less just a bunch of climbers that do their own thing.

Sam Lightner, Jr. wrote:chalk marks on petroglyphs.

Grrrr...

Member of both—AAC & AF.

Here in Arizona an LEO ranger decided fixed anchors were illegal in the Coronado—any fixed anchors---anywhere, hand drilled or Bosched.

The ranger ticketed a climber for putting up a multi-pitch route in which no fixed anchors were visible from the ground.

In other words, this ranger's position (and presumably that of the Coronado) was all the fixed anchors on Lemmon or in the Stronghold were illegal. Please read that again.

We went to trial. I defended the climber. He was looking at fines, probation and/or jail time if we lost.

The AF helped me to prepare for trial. At no expense to the climber, they flew their big gun expert witness down to Tucson to help me at trial.

If you want to keep climbing, then you really, really need to support (at very least) the ACCESS FUND.

Thanks!

Scott McNamara

Scott M. McNamara wrote:MHe was looking fines, probation and/or jail time if we lost.

Jail for bolting a route? Are you f'in kidding me. What the hell is America coming to. Soon J-walking is going to be a felony... The term felony has lost all of its meaning, everything is a felony now days. I have better things to spend my money on than taxes to fund a legal system that jails people for extremely minor slap on the wrist level crimes. Especially crimes that should not illegal be in the first place, and crimes that were passed by someone that knows nothing about the activity s/he is trying to outlaw. I wish I could get a high paying job that allows me to make decisions about something I am grossly underqualified to be making decisions about. It seems there are a lot of those types of positions in America, can anyone guide me to one?

20 kN wrote: Sure there is. Being a member costs money. Some people live paycheck to paycheck. Others don't even have a job. More others feel their money is best spent at a charity. Anyway, the point is that not everyone has money to blow so easily. Don't forget, the average family wealth in America has declined over the past few years whereas the average cost of living has aggressively increased. People have less money to spend on things this decade than they did last. Sure you could argue that $30 is nothing, and I would agree with you, but to someone who lives paycheck to paycheck or does not have a job, I doubt they would agree with us. .

Good point. There are some climbers in dire straits who really can't afford $30.
I'll gladly cut them a break.
There are also non-member climbers who spend $30 every weekend on beer, gas, or climbing gadgets. They have no excuse.
There are also climbers who live a 'low cash lifestyle' who IMHO could find a way to work a few hours each year and pay their share to protect our access to the places we love.

I am a member of the AAC..............

The Access Fund.......................

And the AMGA.............

I pay all my dues every year with out thinking about it.......

If you have to think about it........

Why then do you climb ??????

Sam no worries....

I was just pointing out MY frustrations with the access issues that pertain to me.

The #1 is Williamson Rock. Most of the people on MP are probablity not awaire of just what has gone on.

Willie is the best place to Sport Climb in Southern California. Its hi elevation, shady location and climber only access makes for a trully awsome venue.

On a hot summers day, you could go there and HUNDREDS of climbers would be enjoying the place.

But it got shut down, WITHOUT any of the public hearings, studies or other regular public imput.

The Forrest service set up some Friends of Williamson Rock group....
I know some folks busted there butts working but in the end, nothing.

As far as I know the AF has not got involved at all in this pressing issue and there have been several hearings over the years.

This is just my personal observation.

I don't wish to go all negitive, The AF HAS been involved with the mess at the Needles and climbers are getting well represented by AF....for that I am gratefull.

We climbers are a miniscule size user group. We don't matter at all to some beaurorat in washington.

Everybody have a good time climbing this weekend.

Member of both.

Great dialog! Thanks Malcom and Sam!

On the hut thing in Europe, I considered getting a stamp for the Europe huts but wasn't sure we'd stay in one while here. At a Swiss hut in Albigna last week, the hut guy said even though the AAC isn't on the list to get a discount, that if you were a member, he'd give the discount any way. Was the difference between 58 and 70+ Swiss Francs for full room and board. Nice.

A tip of the Nero d'Avola from Chiavenna to both the AAC and AF!

I can tell you Guy that the job at the AF HQ, every day, starts with triage... who is dying the fastest and can be saved. I know that a few years ago they went to bat, hard, over a land manager trying to close some San Diego areas by claiming that ravens were migratory birds that needed the cliffs free of climbers.

One thing all of us have to do is remember that the AF can't respond if they don't know about it. Locals need to inform them. I know one of the reasons the the Colo crags get so much love is that they are right there and hear about stuff going down directly. Board members also make their areas a priority, not because the area is more important, but just because they know when a problem is happening and can make it a priority. We came up with the regional coordinator system, as well as the concept of bringing in local groups like the Friends of Indian Creek and Red River Gorge Climbers Coalition, specifically to stay abreast of.

As per these So.Cal areas, they may have gotten little notice, or little help, or just plain blindsided before they could do anything. They may also have known and just were buried under everything else. As I said before, every day the sky is falling somewhere. If there is a bill to ban all fixed anchors on national public land (we had that as a rider on a bill a few years ago and only found out because a page informed us) is headed into congress, or some clown is trying to get ravens designated as endangered migratory bird species, or some tribe is trying to set a precedent for closing all places to climbing that were once recognized as spiritual (The Tetons, Yosemite, Devils Tower, and sadly Cave Rock), they end up focusing on that.

What I am certain of is that the Access Fund very much cares about all American climbing areas. They get paid less than most in the non profit industry, certainly less than most in the Boulder area, and they put in long hours... all for the sport they love.